Philip meets up with Dragan Grabulovski, CEO of the startup Araris, at Lake Zurich to chat about the company’s work with antibody-drug conjugates (ADCs).
They talk about Araris’ huge $400M upfront buyout by Taiho Pharma of Japan, Dragan’s extensive history as a biotech entrepreneur, and Araris’ vision to replace chemotherapy with ADCs.
⭐️ ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Dragan Grabulovski is a co-founder of the startup Araris and became CEO in 2023. He previously worked as a biotech consultant and startup coach in Switzerland. He co-founded the biotech company Covagen in 2007, which was acquired by Johnson & Johnson in 2014. Dragan has a Master’s degree and a PhD in Pharmaceutical Sciences from ETH Zurich.
🔗 LINKS MENTIONED
- Araris’ website: https://www.ararisbiotech.com/
- Taiho Pharma acquires Araris: https://www.ararisbiotech.com/docs/250316_250317-araris-taiho-pr.pdf
- Robin Carr, Myricx Bio 🇬🇧 | New ADC Payloads, London Biotech Startups | E38: https://flot.bio/episode/robin-carr-myricx-bio-adc/
- Dominik Schumacher, Tubulis 🇩🇪 | Founder-led ADC Biotech ⭐️ | E19: https://flot.bio/episode/dominik-schumacher-tubulis/
- ETH entrepreneurship and terms: https://ethz.ch/staffnet/en/news-and-events/internal-news/archive/2025/07/new-business-creation-regulations-and-equity-and-licensing-policy.html
Transcript
[00:00:00] Intro
Philip Hemme: The acquisition of Araris by Taiho earlier this year, it’s 400 million upfront for per chemical is, yeah, quite sizable. It was one of the
Dragan Grabulovski: largest preclinical deals ever.
Philip Hemme: I’m curious on the repeat entrepreneur thing, it’s in theory it’s easier to do it again, but in practice it’s also really hard and it’s always a rollercoaster
Dragan Grabulovski: with many highs and many lows, and that’s part of the game had some people say yes, some people say no, you don’t take it personally, you just move on.
It also has evolved over the past 20 years or so in Switzerland, everything has been more professionalized to support entrepreneurial thinking. If I see pictures now of really young talents, PhDs, postdocs, they are really good.
Philip Hemme: You have new to a new episode. I am yos Philip, and on this show I’m entering the best Europeans in biotech to help you grow. Antibody drug conjugates or ADCs could replace chemotherapy in the next 10 years. However, there are still many challenges. Aras is one of the leading a DC biotech in Europe. Its platform is bringing speed of development as well as better safety and efficacy.
So I went to the shore of the Zurich Lake to meet with the founder Dragan. I knew him for his first exit when I met him in Zurich, I believe almost 10 years ago. In 20 17, 5 flies. We talked about the recent acquisition of ours by Japanese pharmaceutical company. Tyo part of Otsuka. We also talked about Dragan’s, strong track record in building and exiting biotechs as well as the future of ADCs.
So here’s my conversation is Dragan, and please hit the like follow button if you’re enjoying it.
Cool. So
Dragan Grabulovski: welcome to the shoulder again. Hi Philip. Thanks for having me here. Welcome to Switzerland. Cool. I mean, Lakeview, it’s not so bad, right? Not too bad.
Philip Hemme: It’s good.
[00:02:08] Araris’ acquisition by Taiho Pharma
Philip Hemme: So yeah, I want to start with the, the acquisition of Araris by, by Taiho. I think it was earlier this year. It’s, I think completed or close to be completed.
It’s completed. It’s completed. Okay. That’s great. And it was so $400 million upfront, I think $740 million in, in milestones. I’m curious to start with of like what’s the story. Behind the deal. How, how did the deal come up, come
Dragan Grabulovski: about? Yes. So we started Araris in 2019. I’m happy to give you more information there.
And in essence, we had a collaboration back in 2023 with Taiho. So this is, this was the first business relationship with Taiho Pharma where they could get access to our platform, they could make ADCs together with us. So it was a collaboration and, and probably that was the starting point, which then culminated, as you said, in the acquisition in March, so six months ago.
Okay.
Philip Hemme: And what triggered the acquisition? Like, they’re so blown away by the technology or what’s the,
Dragan Grabulovski: I mean, for me, probably us, I have to ask Taiho, but I mean, we like our technology and our product candidates. Indeed. And as you know, I mean ADCs and jokes aside, so ADCs have a true potential as we all know, to really.
Changed the treatment paradigm in oncology as a general. So, and, and probably that’s why the whole industry is working on ADCs and so is Taiho and it seems that they liked our platform and candidates. Yes. Yeah.
Philip Hemme: Good. So I will continue on errors in the, in the industry. One thing that I’m also curious in what, what struck me is that we met, the first time we just discussed before the recording, I think was just after you did the cover and your exit basically, and now you’ve basically done two exits Yes.
In the a hundred plus millions dollars, which is. Pretty rare in Europe, I think in, in Switzerland for sure. In Europe. Also quite rare. I’m just curious if you could I first tell a bit the story of, of Covagen and how, how did you go to the, to the exit and then I have a few more Yeah. For shoot on this.
Dragan Grabulovski: Yeah. Let’s start in 2007. No, it’s, it’s really incredible. I sometimes hardly believe what, what just happened also. So yes, I was fortunate enough to co-found Covagen as a PhD student. Yeah. This was really in 2007, we were two P people. Yeah. Together with Julian Inger. We grew cogen to about 35 people.
Yeah. In 2014. And then in 2014, there was a competitive bidding process. Yeah. Where then J&J made the race and acquired Covagen. And this was in 2014. So what probably, or this probably shaped my knowledge, my, my experience. Yeah. Because I, I was fortunate enough to see everything from, start with the seed fund seed financing round.
Then growing the company, closing deals with Roche and Mitsubishi Tanabe. Yeah. Scaling the company.
Philip Hemme: Oh, many Japanese deals.
Dragan Grabulovski: Yeah. Also Roche and, and Mitsubishi. Yes. Mitsi and. So, so seeing the whole journey Yeah. Was a unique experience and, and probably I could profit then later also with that artist from this experience.
And even in between the exit of Covagen, I mean, then I stayed and worked with for J&J. Yeah. I became a consultant to venture capital companies, which made two things with me. So one is I stayed up to date with the science because you see many proposals as an advisor to venture capitalists. And also I still learn, you know, how VCs look into biotech companies and what they want to see, what triggers the yes or no answer.
Because the yes is very rare. Yeah. They see so many proposals. Usually they say no. Yeah. So I then I also could learn a lot there again. And then founding co-founding Araris in 2019.
Philip Hemme: Yeah. That’s cool. A lot of things I want to jump on. I’m curious on the, now that you’ve had the two exit on the bear, what, what are some of the things you’re looking at differently?
Dragan Grabulovski: How do you mean that?
Philip Hemme: I don’t know. Like, I mean, after the first exit you say, okay, I’ve seen the whole journey. I’ve learned a lot. Now that you have two exits, what are some of the lessons or additional lessons?
Dragan Grabulovski: Yeah, I mean that every deal is different. Unfortunately. You cannot know it all. You still have to learn and yeah, adapt.
And it’s really, the circumstances are different. The time is different. The financial environment is different. Pharmaceutical companies evolve. The whole field evolve. So, and cogen was more in the bispecific, but inflammatory diseases, even though we also had oncology projects and now this is a, was an oncology place, so many things are different, but you just adapt, learn every day.
Philip Hemme: Yeah. I’m curious on the, on the repeat entrepreneur thing, because. In theory, it’s easier to do it again, but in practice it’s also really hard. And as you said, every, it’s all different and you have different set of challenges. And I can see it a bit with myself at the one exit and now starting a second company, it’s, it’s as hard i this if not harder on some point, some points easier.
How was it for you? Like the
Dragan Grabulovski: Yes. Biotech? Yes. Biotech journey is, is a rollercoaster all the time. And I have been advising also companies, so not only these two, so I had insights in many other but, and it’s always a rollercoaster in many highs and many lows. And, and that’s part of the game. And, and what’s, what also makes it very interesting.
Obviously it’s part of the fun, I guess. Yes, but
Philip Hemme: that’s good.
[00:08:29] Covagen: Dragan Grabulovski’s first exit
Philip Hemme: On, on that also on that topic, I’m, I’m curious, you are, as you said, like consultant between. Like, what, what made you like, and I think Araris, when you start, you were not CEO at the beginning right now. Mm-hmm. What, what made you like go back into like CEO role and, and actual operational versus a bit more handoff?
Dragan Grabulovski: Yes. When we co-founded Araris, I was the chairman and board member and, but still operational one to two days. And I simply could not jump in full time because I had other commitments, which you know, I, when I say yes to something, then I stick to it until there is a complete story. So I could not, even if I wanted to, I was, I didn’t want, there was no opportunity.
Okay. And then as and the evolved, I mean, perfectly, right? Mm-hmm. We had a seed financing round now 15.5 million mm-hmm. In 2020. Mm-hmm. And COVID hit Yeah. And. This was probably unheard of also in the Swiss environment for a seed. It’s, it’s quite rough. We, we were happy because it allows you really to, to, to make, well,
Philip Hemme: it depends how you can, I mean, how you name seed versus suse, but yeah.
Yeah, I think for it’s a real seed, just after. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Dragan Grabulovski: And, that’s why. So we, we could really work and, and, and, and achieve milestones. And the data were so good that in 2000, 22, 23, then we all together because I have seen the scaling with Covagen, we all decided then, and that was a good moment in time also for me to really take on the, the CO.
Okay. Yeah.
Philip Hemme: Alex? Yeah. That’s, yeah. And then, okay. Yeah, that’s good. I need to change you on this, but also I, I’m curious also on like, ’cause one thing I hear quite a lot, even on the show from some VCs is that they love. But the entrepreneurs who have made it and who go back into it again and say, you’re more backable.
I guess you felt that as well. Like with I rest, even if you were not CEO, you were in the founding team, I guess
Dragan Grabulovski: Yes, we, yes. Usually. I think this is probably natural that you think that this person who has done it’s more credible certainly will do it again, I guess. Yes, he does it at least. I mean, you know, it also yourself when you start driving for the first time, of course, you know, maybe all the rules and stuff, but you don’t have this experience that somebody who drove since 20 years, which probably doesn’t know all the rules still,
Philip Hemme: but the rules as well.
Dragan Grabulovski: So it’s, I think this, it’s, it’s this type of thinking, which is understandable to a certain point that, that which I also felt, yeah, and also probably I’m, or. If you have done it, you’re then also more relaxed. You know that some people say yes, some people say no, you don’t take it personally. You just move on.
Yeah. Yeah. You adapt your if needed
Philip Hemme: and just go on. Okay. Yeah. That’s good. So, so, and so I, I always on the, on the story actually, the, the last time I heard about you guys is actually not the Exodus on the, on the Strungmann award mm-hmm. Which was awarded to you, which was, I, I, I was a bit curious because the strongman normally is more like early stage companies and then now it was exited company.
Mm-hmm. Like how, how did it come about? I mean, is it like,
Dragan Grabulovski: I mean, the Strungmann award? Yeah. The founders, so the three of us, yeah. Three founders, Philip, Isabella, and myself. Yeah. We’ve got this prize. Yeah. Which we’re very happy about. Yeah. And the Strungmann award acknowledges signed entrepreneurial.
Excellence if you want to. And, and obviously the jury felt that the three of us, how we managed to found Araris and also do this whole journey and then the exit deserved it. We were convincing. So yeah,
[00:12:54] The origins of Araris and its ADC tech
Philip Hemme: that’s, and the Strungmann for, for the audience as well is the, the two founders I think who exited Heon, I think for, I don’t remember how much.
5 billion something, which was I think a family owned company and now they invested in with a family office into many successful biotech, include BioNTech and, and a few others. And not the price. They, they started the process. I think it’s the second year they, they did it. Yeah. That’s good. And maybe, so Iris, you said O one thing, which is also, I mean, you.
It’s quite surprising. Is that you, I mean that’s, that you, you started really from scratch as well with the technology from the PS Institute or connected to the ETH. And Philip, I think what is one of the, like scientists c Yeah. Can you talk a bit about the story of like how, like how did this whole, like founding came about?
How did they decided to spin out or spin off there?
Dragan Grabulovski: Yes. So also Philip as you said, so he was a postdoc at the Paul-Scherrer-Institute, which belongs to the ETH domain here in Switzerland. And he also had from the very beginning, this entrepreneurial mindset because he applied for the so-called Founder fellowship.
This is an initiative of the, of the PSI, the Paul-Scherrer-Institute in order to explore the interest both from investors and the pharmaceutical industry on his technology on this platform. So he. This, this wish and, and, and entrepreneurial thinking from the very start. Yeah. And this was a time when we met, so he was doing interviews.
He approached many people in, from the industry. And when I saw his platform, I, I was really amazed and intrigued and I saw immediately the potential
Philip Hemme: mm-hmm.
Dragan Grabulovski: Of his congregation and, and, and linker technology in the ADC field. So then we rather quickly talked about potential co-founding possible co-founding at that time.
And that was also the, the time when Isabella, the third co-founder of Harari, she was living in Canada with her family, and she was about to move back to Switzerland. So she also approached me by pure coincidence and she said, oh, Dragan, we want to come back to Switzerland. You see so many biotechs. Is there something interesting?
No joke. And then I say, yes I want you to be a co-founder with me. Okay. Crazy. And she was not believing it first, but then, yeah, I made the intro to Philip. They, they met as well. And this is how it, it evolved that the three of us, we met and saw the potential and we were. Retrospectively courageous enough to just found without knowing whether we would get a license from the academia at what terms there was, we didn’t have any clue.
We, we, there was a lot of unknowns, but we were so convinced that it will work. So we just decided, okay, let’s gofo together. I
Philip Hemme: like that. I will, I will talk about the, the terms because yeah. On a bit later, but on the, and so Isabella didn’t bring the technology. She bought, she joined as a, as a founder team, but the technology was from, from Philip.
Yes. Yes.
Dragan Grabulovski: But we have just three really complimentary skills the three of us that, so very, it was, I, that’s why I approached her immediately when she asked about new opportunities. Yeah. I thought that this could work together.
Philip Hemme: Yeah, it’s good. And on the, on the technology itself, because I. I, I, I looked, I looked into it from my understanding is that, I mean, it’s basically a linker technology that you can attach link, I mean the payloads to kind of any type of antibodies or any like natural antibody with a pretty high quality for the high payload.
So can you tell a bit more on the technology maybe, I mean, where it is today compared to when you found it then? Yeah.
Dragan Grabulovski: Yes. It was also in the evolution. Yeah. Yeah. But so the advantages of of our platforms are, are. Multifold. So from the very beginning, we tried to address the limitations of existing ADC technologies and products.
And so first, Philipp has developed a platform that allows the congregation of payloads without the need of prior antibody engineering. So you can take any antibody off the shelf as as they are, and then you can attach. Something. And I already, this, I, I felt in the beginning was a huge advantage because as we all know, many pharmaceutical companies have a lot of antibodies in their drawers, which as a naked antibody might be suboptimal or didn’t deliver on the promise.
So make turning them into an ADC would be beneficial maybe. And then you don’t need to engineer, you know, in case a pharmaceutical company has already a cell line, which is costly, then you don’t want to change again, something on the antibody and make actually, yeah. So this was, this is one component.
Then the second one is if you make an ADC with the, with this platform, the resulting ADC has really favorable properties in terms of pharmacokinetic stability, aggregation, which are very important topics in the ADC field. Mm-hmm. And also more importantly higher efficacy and better tolerability then.
Comparable ADCs. Okay. Made with other technologies. And then probably the most important advantage or part is if you look at conventional chemotherapy, it’s always a combination of different toxins. Yeah. And if you look at the currently marketed ADCs, they carry just one payload class. And with Philip, with our platform, we can attach several different payloads classes mimicking conventional therapy.
Okay. But delivering them in a targeted fashion. And that’s, that’s really the, we are doing here, pioneering work. And, and others also have started in the meantime to do this because again, knowing from the experience with convention chemotherapy, you have to attack the tumor combination basically. Yes.
Inside. Okay. So instead the multipayer approach, which, which also triggered a lot of interest. And, and, and. We see this as a, as a game changing and there’s a lot of potential. Yeah.
Philip Hemme: Okay. And, and why would you just not use like several, let’s say if you take your heart to antibody with different payloads, why would you not like com combine several antibodies versus putting the payload on the, on the same a, d, c?
Dragan Grabulovski: Yes. This has several disadvantages. If you combine it, then they would go after the same target and then they would compete. Okay. And then certain cells will only see one payload, others the other one, and only rarely both together. Okay. And then it’s also cost of goods, how, which ratio? Whereas if you have one clean product, it’s always preferred.
Okay. Yeah.
Philip Hemme: Makes sense. One thing from my understanding also in, in in a DC, what’s super important is the, the, what is it, the index, the amount of payload truck. 20 antibody ratio. Yeah. Yeah. And from understanding that’s from, I think Daiichi has a technology where they can be much higher than others, from my understanding.
Is that correct? And how do you compare to, let’s say, the standards, let’s say daishi to the, to the top?
Dragan Grabulovski: Yeah. Yes. I mean, the drug antibody ratio is indeed very important in the EDC field. And also here, in our experience, you, there is no rule I think for every indication, for every antibody. In the end you need to find the optimal therapeutic index, meaning.
What is, what about the efficacy compared to tolerability or toxicity? And this you can achieve via by dosing and, and different means and the drug to antibody ratio. So you, in our view, you have to empirically test and then choose the best that works for this indication. But there is no guarantee that if you found something for one indication that you can just copy the same approach for another indication and it would deliver the same good results.
So it’s I think still it has to be found out empirically, and this is what many companies do in my understanding.
Philip Hemme: Okay. It’s a bit more custom to the disease. Yes. Unfortunately there’s no reception what you do. Yeah. Okay. Has everything in biotech it? Yes. It’s never, that’s, that’s straightforward. Okay.
[00:22:14] How to value a technology platform
Philip Hemme: And then the on, because I think with. I think one challenge with a lot of companies who have a platform with a technology like this is always like, how much is this platform worth? And then what’s the asset and how do you select the asset from my understanding you in, in preclinical. Yeah. Can you talk a bit more on like the, the current asset or the lead assets and how did you select them?
Yeah.
Dragan Grabulovski: Yes. So we are currently working on the three ADCs to bring them to the clinic as quickly as possible. So they’re in preclinical or in d enabling studies, stage preclinical. And then we have a pipeline of several more earlier stage C compounds. And the three acid, they are both, it’s a mix of indications in the, in the hemon or hemat oncology field and solid tumors.
And the first one, it’s CD 79 BADC for, for different types of lymphomas and the t to go to. Clinics early next year. Yeah. Okay. And the two other ones then later next year as well. Yeah. Okay. But we are preclinical.
Philip Hemme: Yeah. Yeah. Which we have joked about, but it’s 400 million upfront for preclinical is, it’s quite sizable.
Like
Dragan Grabulovski: yes. If you look at the, also in the history and, and, and it was one of the largest preclinical deals ever. Yeah. Yeah. It’s crazy.
Philip Hemme: And you said for 16 employees it’s even
Dragan Grabulovski: yes. I always,
Philip Hemme: it’s really high. And I’m, I’m curious because on the, on the platform, I mean, in theory your, your platform you could makes, I mean, makes me think about.
Whatever, like I mean, at, at the end, your, your platform, you could generate, you could apply to many, many ADCs versus going into your own assets, but I guess you capture as value as well. Yes. So yeah,
Dragan Grabulovski: the end also, this is my experience the pharmaceutical industry is, is looking, you know, to fill their own pipeline with products.
And that’s very important in my view, if even if you started as a platform company that you develop as early as possible your own products. Yeah.
Philip Hemme: Okay. Yeah, that’s a good lesson, I think, and for anyone watching, especially for academics, I think when you, if you have a technology like this, it’s, you would think, oh, I just licensed the technology to many people.
But assets are still Yes. What matters. Especially, I think the asset is, I mean, again, I’m thinking, I mean also, but from, from my experience, but the asset is. Is also validation of the platform. Exactly. And then you, you need a Yeah, which is not easy. Very well said. Which is not easy to find the assets like because I, I mean we talked a bit just before, before hitting recall, but I, I worked but with molecular partners and I mean I had amazing platform and those, like many patient, and they even had assets that went through, through phase three, but they was really not easy for them also to, to find not just the right asset, but the right target, the right indication, differentiate their, I mean it’s,
Dragan Grabulovski: that’s the toughest part.
It’s tough. I agree.
Philip Hemme: It’s tough. So how did you, and especially how did you manage? Because in, especially in a DC and I guess when you started it was maybe a bit less crowded, but still was already like quite crowded, especially in some of the Indic, I mean in oncology, in some of the oncology indication you’re going after, it’s like, it’s tough to have a lot.
So how did you like. Find the, the right indication? How, like the differentiation?
Dragan Grabulovski: Yes. This is a process right, because this is, again, this is really the, the, the one of the most difficult tasks as a small biotech. And also here, what what really helps is to go out, to really find out what are the limitations in current treatments for a certain indication.
Because you are, I mean, of course you’re competing also against other ADCs, but that’s not the end. You’re competing saying against small molecules, antibodies, bispecific against everything that is out there for this indication. So you need to take a holistic approach and what, what you, you have to do is then you talk really to many people who, who know the field to find out are there any limitations, and if yes, can you address those with your platform.
Mm-hmm. And then you are, do you have the capabilities? Because sometime you find very nice limitations where you can go after, but then you found out that with your capabilities and the small team view, it’s, it’s simply not possible. Mm-hmm. Then you have to focus on other things. So is, but it’s a stepwise approach and always evolving.
Mm-hmm. And, and always questioning or we on the right path.
Philip Hemme: Yeah. And I guess if you, I mean also when you want to compete, I mean, if a big farmer is already on something Yeah. Especially when they’re advancing, they can move very, I mean, once they’re decided they can move quite fast and it’s really hard to compete with a big pharma who is already.
Yeah. Yeah. Yes.
Dragan Grabulovski: Yeah. It has pros and cons even because on one, and it gives you validation that you are working on something interesting potentially. But in the end, yes. You have to see whether you are just a me too of that. Yeah. Or whether you, you are superior. Yeah, yeah,
Philip Hemme: yeah. I’ve seen a few example.
It makes me think even. Yeah. Again, very part because they were in multiple myeloma and or a ML and was just as, the space was so complicated, as you said, not just antibodies specific, and then even the cell therapy and like, and then you really need like crazy results. Crazy overall survival rate. And
Dragan Grabulovski: why do people store bio?
Philip Hemme: Yeah.
At the end. Yeah. But when you find the right one, then yeah, yeah, yeah. But I’m curious also on the fit with, with Tayo, because you actually, I didn’t, I didn’t know them that well. Before, before seeing the deal, like how, how was it complementary? Was, was, was, was their approach. Yeah. How did it fit it together?
Dragan Grabulovski: Yes. I think it’s, it’s a very good fit because Taiho, Taiho is, is fully dedicated to oncology. Yeah. So it’s the, it’s a subsidiary of Otsuka. Okay. Which is, and Taiho is fully focused on oncology. Yeah. Okay. We, they have products small molecule products, and as mentioned, the ease as the whole industry ADCs may really change and, and have started actually to change the treatment paradigms.
Yeah. And so this, this was a perfect match in my view.
Philip Hemme: Okay. Yeah. That’s good. It’s a good good.
[00:29:34] The burgeoning ADC market
Philip Hemme: Also transition to ADCs a bit in, in general, I think what, what’s pretty crazy with a DC, it’s, my opinion is like, do, it has been under development for whatever, 30 has decades. 40, 40 years. And at the beginning it didn’t work.
Didn’t work well. Yes. And now it took off like crazy. I mean, in the last 10 years of, of some, some stats, but I think it’s something like now it’s whatever, 19 or 20 approved ADCs on the market right now.
Dragan Grabulovski: Not yet. But you
Philip Hemme: Okay. In, in this, in this range, ballpark range, the a DC market is also in the, what was it in by 2030, but now I think it’s in the tens of billions in revenues.
Yes. So how, how did you, yeah. How do you look at it like or, yeah. How, how do you reckon it? What were some, some of the big, the things that impressed you? Some of the big milestones like
Dragan Grabulovski: Yes, indeed. I mean, as you said I think the, the idea of bringing something toxic to the site of disease and spare the rest of the, this idea was born essentially with when, when the first antibodies were born.
Right. And unfortunately in the early two thousands and was a lot of hope already then, and then a lot of failures. Yeah. And, and with ups and downs. So and also in 2019, when we founded Araris. Many people. Oh no. Again, a DC No. You will never make, oh, this is not
Philip Hemme: it was a bit earlier than when the, the big hype for a DC state.
Yes, it was. Yes, it was a bit, a few years before. Yeah.
Dragan Grabulovski: And then, but we again we saw the potential and, and I really thought that with this stable linkage and, and, and everything you were in that time, you were not even thinking about this multi payload approach Yeah. At the start. Because you need to validate first a couple of things.
Step, step, step, step. And, and yeah. And luckily, I, I think, you know, with you mentioned the he before, I mean Daiichi then made a, a gold standard for the treatment of, of, of her two positive breast cancer. Yeah. And with other approvals, with still rather early technologies. But they found, again, to find this therapeutic index that I was talking before Yeah.
For certain indications so that they could get approval and help the patients. Yeah. Yeah. And that gave, I think, a boost to the whole industry. And also we saw an increased interest just by this fact. Yeah. And now these platforms, they are developing further and, and I see this trend going on. One thing is where we are pioneering the field in this multiple approach, and then others are bispecific, ADCs, multi specific ADCs and, and, and continuously trying to address the limitations of existing therapeutics.
Philip Hemme: And what do you Yeah. And what, because what, what do you see as the, like some of the main limitations? I mean, except what you’re solving, but in, in the, in the space, like
Dragan Grabulovski: I mean, still the main limitations is tolerability still today. If you look at the ABCs, you know, you probably cannot dose as high as you wanted to because you’re applying still in the end a lot of toxin.
Yeah. Yeah. And this is where. A lot of innovation is happening and will continue to happen.
Philip Hemme: Okay. Yeah. And I guess to solve it, you have different ways to solve it and it’s,
Dragan Grabulovski: it’s all about the specificity and bringing as much payload to the tumor and spare the rest of the,
Philip Hemme: and I guess also using the right the right payload or different type of payload.
Now it’s coming like Robin from, from Myricx mm-hmm. Which was one of the last episode in London. And yes, they have a new type of payload, which is also quite rare in, in ADCs. Yes. I think the topple one, like, I don’t know how many hundreds are using it, but then
Dragan Grabulovski: Yes, exactly. Yes. And also a lot of happened also, so you, I think the evolution happened on all three aspects.
And a DC has three parts, antibody linker, the payload, and you can play around on all three components. And a lot of things were improved on the antibody side. Yeah. Since also decades then with Linkers, Philip, we and, and others, you know, are constantly improving on those aspect. And also payloads, you know, the making MME work.
Just what the, the early ADCs stand out. The whole topo, yeah. Avalara and, and, and still, yeah. Pharmaceutical industry is looking for novel payloads.
Philip Hemme: Yeah. Yeah. That’s good. Yeah. And so 1, 1, 1 thing that also, or like one thing I saw with a DC also kind of a drug resistance or the, the tumor resistance.
How much is that? Like a challenge?
Dragan Grabulovski: Yeah. This is a huge challenge. This is what prompted us or. To make this multi payload approach. Okay. Because it’s known from the clinic, like with the conventional chemotherapy. Yeah. If you apply one payload class over time, unfortunately certain tumor cells will survive by mutations or, or pumps, and then they will outgrow again.
So you need to attack the tumor from different angles, different modes of action. And that prompted us to make this multi.
Philip Hemme: Okay. So it’s not just to from the scratch, be more, just be more potent. It’s also resistance. Yeah. To reduce the resistance. Yeah. I like that. Yeah. And talking, just stay on on ADCs a bit on the, some of the deals.
I mean, you said in preclinical you are one of the biggest deals, I think, not just a DC, but on, on non, even on non ADCs. I remember seeing some of the crazy deals, like what was it was. Is, it was, was Merck, right? It was as was like some crazy numbers. Like, what was it, 4 billion up front or something.
Mm-hmm. What are like the biggest deals that you, you have seen or that kind of, that struck you? I
Dragan Grabulovski: mean also Eds and Gilead Yeah. Was a big deal. How much was it? 20 something. Oh, okay. Billion. And also and Covagen, Pfizer, I guess. Covagen, Pfizer, AbbVie. Imagine. Yeah. So big deals. Yeah. Big deals. Big deals.
Yeah. But I mean, I mean, it. I mean, I mean, of course we see this, this, this, these numbers, but as you, I think you can be sure that many people looked at those numbers to, to, to identify whether they are justified or not in this context as the price. I mean, it’s a difficult, it’s, it’s, I think it’s a science on its own to define a, a, a, a price Right.
Has to odd, yeah. You, you work with different models and depending on the models they are, you can also be of the opinion that they are very justified. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Philip Hemme: And I guess what we just said also, when you, when you see the sales numbers already, yes. Some of the sales. I guess the anticipation is, is being, this is what I was heading to.
Yeah. Yeah. And the sales model there. Yeah. I mean, the valuations. Yeah. I mean, it’s, I guess even for you guys, I mean, there’s a, there’s a science and you can use whatever models and, and that present value and whatever. Yes. There’s also a bit of timing. Yes. Competition, a bit of feeding out. Yes. Che, human chemistry.
It is a,
Dragan Grabulovski: yeah. Yeah. A lot of things need to happen altogether that the deal happens. Yeah. That’s why it’s so rare.
Philip Hemme: I like, even for the audience, what I, what I quite like to do is looking at especially when it’s public companies and when there’s acquisition happening, especially with acquisition, more than with deals, but even with deals.
Then when they are publicly listed, you see the filings. And then in the filings they have to details, like they have to put everything, everything. And you can see like the bidding offer, you can see the meetings happening and who talked to who at JPM, and then they made a first offer and then mm-hmm.
Whatever. There’s competition and then the bid doubled overnight. I mean, over a few weeks the bid doubled. Mm-hmm. The sales target is the same, but that you sometimes it’s, it’s a curious it’s I mean, for, for people are curious. You can, you can dig into this as well. Yeah. I guess for you guys, auto, I don’t, is it, it’s publicist, Inca, or, yes.
Yeah. So I guess there’s some details also published on the deal itself. I haven’t looked at it. I to the journalists. Yeah. I’ll will check my Japanese and, and how, how is it to work with, with a Japanese company? You said with Mitsubishi before and now is with, with west, because I, I’ve heard it is, is quite like special, like in terms of working culture.
It’s quite, let’s say, unique. Yes. It’s not good and bad,
Dragan Grabulovski: but different. Yeah, exactly. So the Japanese are different than the Swiss and the Swiss are different than the Germans and, and the French. And, and so this is I think if you work in a, in a global environment, you need to deal with different cultures, different types of, of, of work.
But I realize that there are also quite some similarities between, by all differences, that there are, but there are also some similarities between the Japanese culture and the Swiss non is this calmness and, and attention to details. Attention, yeah. To details and, and careful thinking before you speak.
So there are also quite some nice similarities that we are working on.
Philip Hemme: Do you have some stories or some, some example? I mean, yeah, some stories on that or some examples or, yeah, if you can share, I dunno, like I.
Dragan Grabulovski: For, I need probably to think about because I, again, I, we try, I mean we also had investors from, from all over, from Asia, from, from Europe, from United States.
So yeah, probably you have stories to, to, to every culture. Yeah. But what is important? Yeah. I think also maybe for the audience, the, the, the face-to-face meeting and building trust, I think this is, this is very important to the Japanese. And I think, but also to me, if, if, if I reflect, you know, if, if I see somebody in person and, and you, you can build mutual trust.
I think this, this is, this could be a very strong basis to, to, to something bigger. But yeah, this is something that stands out. Yeah,
Philip Hemme: I hear, yeah, I heard this first that in Japan, they take it to the, to the another level. Like, I dunno where I read this, that. Like before discussing any kind of business terms you have, sometimes they bring you for entire day.
The example was something like that bring you to play golf somewhere and then you, for the entire day, you just build a human connection and then, and you give lot of gifts and kind of like
Dragan Grabulovski: very, yes. You build the trust and then you can start like, yes, we learn the hospitality and this is amazing. Yeah.
Yeah. I can, you can prefer this.
Philip Hemme: Yes. Yeah. And I love Japan as well, and I mean, I haven’t worked too much with Japanese, whether it’s from, even from the culture and at least visiting is, is amazing.
[00:41:53] ADCs replacing chemotherapy
Philip Hemme: I, I’m curious also on, on, if you look at, you said like ADCs you have to compete with others like other bispecific maps, whatever, like h how do you, how do you look at it? Like h how do you look at the competition? Is it like a, d, c will replace some of the others, or is it. Just depending on the indication in like, for example, breast cancer, a disease will work better and some others, let’s say hematology, whatever, CAR T will work very well.
Do. How do you, like, how do you see it?
Dragan Grabulovski: Yeah. I mean the region is indeed so there are several aspects of why we also started and why I was all in with Arris. When, when deciding do I want to co-found or not, the vision is really to replace at least chemotherapy because this is a really an awful treatment.
And I, and I think even 40 years ago when the whole idea was born was from the very beginning, that’s the hope that ADCs can, to a certain extent replace chemotherapy. Yeah. You mentioned those other modalities, maps, car ts, bispecifics? Yeah. Here, I think it’s not either or, but it’s probably together. Yeah.
Okay. To find out what is the best for the patient. And then you give the best possible combination. And that should include and will include also other modalities in my view. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. But I think if you can get rid of too many chemotherapy, this would help a lot. Yeah.
Philip Hemme: Because at at the end, I mean, you can, let’s say in theory you can take a existing chemotherapy that works and just transform it into a EC, and it’ll be just in theory, just it has, I mean, in theory can be only better in theory at least.
Yes,
Dragan Grabulovski: yes.
Philip Hemme: But
Dragan Grabulovski: in theory, yeah, in theory, yes. And this has been tried, but, and it was found out that some of the convention chemotherapies were l. Not working. Okay. So that’s why you needed to have somewhat more potent Okay. Chemotherapies. But now, then again you can increase the D and then again the whole empirical testing starts.
Philip Hemme: Okay. And how much time do you see that that replacement happening? ’cause I mean, I guess a lot of the chemotherapy are so generic right now, so, and they’re still in first line, especially in Europe. They’re still in first line. How, how do you see that? Like, what’s kind of, I think
Dragan Grabulovski: it’s starting, if you remember ASCO this year?
Yeah. There were two studies already where head to head where it was shown that ADCs could replace chemotherapy. I think this was the first avenue in clinical trials. So I’m expecting
Philip Hemme: it’s the ASRA inhale to is the ASRA drug now.
Dragan Grabulovski: Yes. One was en her two or something that can indeed en her two and the other one was from, from Gilead.
Philip Hemme: Okay.
Dragan Grabulovski: And I think this, this is, is is very remarkable. Yeah. And as you know, there are hundreds of clinical trials with a disease. So I am expecting really in the next few years that this new treatment will be established.
Philip Hemme: Yeah. Okay. And I think from what you said from asco, if I remember well, is that they showed that there could be first line treatment, or there will be first line.
Dragan Grabulovski: And there are also also, you see is first line. Now we’re together with PD one. Yeah.
Philip Hemme: Okay. Yeah. That’s amazing. But I guess as, as always, in pharma as well, until it takes time, it takes time. I guess especially in, in Europe with, I mean we talked to many guests about the reimbursement as well and how much you finance innovation, and in general, US finance much more or more keen to pay for innovation.
So I guess even that in Europe will take a bit more time. Right. I guess 10, 15 years, something like this until
Dragan Grabulovski: I’m more optimistic.
Philip Hemme: You’re more,
Dragan Grabulovski: yes.
Philip Hemme: Good, good. We’ll see, it’s, it’s hard to, to timelines over, over five two. It’s good.
[00:46:15] The Swiss biotech ecosystem
Philip Hemme: The one thing I also, what what we just said, I wanted to get back to it, is also on the, on the spinning. Spinning of our spinning. I, I think actually, I mean, Switzer is pretty good. I mean ETH of course, but also others, I mean, and EPFL in Lona are very good.
I feel like there’s, yeah, I feel like. Pretty good in, in terms of like making it happen? I’m just curious of like how, yeah, like can you tell a bit more about it? Is it, is it true? What’s, what’s the main drivers there?
Dragan Grabulovski: Like? Yes. I think it also has evolved of, over the past 20 years or so in Switzerland, everything has been more professionalized to support entrepreneurial thinking.
If I see pitches now of really young talents, either PhDs, postdocs. They are really good. If I remember my, my first pitch together with Julian in 2000 5, 6 7 at Stein we were really green horse. So I think the, and and they see the role models, they see this exity. They, they ask me others, people from electric partners are also, I see them on many startup competitions.
And so it’s, it’s starting to, to to, to evolve and then it has evolved. Yeah. And I think this helps to drive the whole community and startup scene. Yeah.
Philip Hemme: Yeah. It’s good. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, at the end you need like, role models. Yeah. At the end it’s super important. Yeah. And yeah. And one thing I recently saw is that I think it’s.
ETH is part of it that what you said about, like, you spin out without knowing the terms. What I saw is that they tried to do some kind of like, like, I don’t know, was it a guidelines or something to a bit more like standardize the terms and to be a bit more like, let’s say founder friendly versus this is more like at first, like what?
I mean, I, I don’t know if, if probably, you know, you know a bit more about it. I
Dragan Grabulovski: also heard about this initiative. Yeah. But I don’t know how you don’t I was not following it.
Philip Hemme: Yeah. Because I, I think, yeah, if I, if I remember where was something like kind of defining the terms a bit more upfront of like, okay, like how much should the institution get, how much should the PI get, how much should the founders get and, and something more reasonable.
Yeah. And that’s something, and also that should, that something should go bit faster. I don’t know the specific, I I would probably link it in the, in the episode, but what I, what I saw is that it’s, it’s like much better than some of the, like, let’s say competing in USC or other universities in, in Europe where I heard some, some horror stories.
And like even in Berlin the first thing that comes to my mind is one, one startup in Berlin, and it took them like something like over 18 months to just get the ip and then the, the terms were completely unrealistic or something like, whatever. So institute wanted like 40 or 50% and you’re like, you made, made no sense.
I guess in your case, I mean, you. When you found it without having the terms, I guess you were kind of trusting also.
Dragan Grabulovski: I was trusting, yeah. To,
Philip Hemme: to, and it worked out at the end, I guess. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Dragan Grabulovski: Be optimistic. Yeah, yeah.
Philip Hemme: No,
Dragan Grabulovski: it’s
Philip Hemme: good. It’s, it’s good to know because I, I think it’s, I mean, I think it’s super, it’s super important for, for spinning out. I mean, you always talk about, yeah. All the, like institutes. Yeah. We need to do more, you know, more visualization, more innovation, more spinning out. And then in practice, when you look at the terms, when it, if it doesn’t make sense, it’s just, doesn’t make sense.
And even heard from, from an investor in, in France, like, they were, you know, they were, they were company builders, vc company builder, and they’re saying still today, they’re talking to universities. And like sometimes the terms were just completely unreasonable and they would just not even start the discussion.
Dragan Grabulovski: It’s exactly,
Philip Hemme: even if the technology is amazing, like Yeah. If there’s some tech transfer offices listening, you can do better. Okay. That’s good. And I think we’ve covered quite a lot. Maybe it’s, let’s touch a bit on, on on Switzerland as a, as a whole, as a, as a biotech industry. Obviously you, you’ve been in it and you’ve, you’ve seen a lot of things.
I think it’s, yeah, it’s quite. It’s, I mean, it’s quite like, it’s very solid in terms of biotech and biopharma especially when you report it to the number of people per capita is, is is really amazing. I dunno, how do you Yeah, just general, I mean more like how do you, how do you look at it?
Biotech in Switzer? How, what did you see evolve? Like Yeah.
Dragan Grabulovski: I, I, as I mentioned before, I, what I see is that still this, this entrepreneurial spirit, many or some people have it and they see these role models, they have access to many people that they can get feedback and, and, and learn and, and, and chat. And I think this, this extend the results that some people then really found and are successful.
Yeah.
Philip Hemme: Yeah. And in the more established companies, I’m just thinking about a WC is a Russian artist. I, I just came back from Basel. I mean, just, there’s huge, but then you have also quite a lot of like more now more like clinical stage companies. I mean, you’re, I tell you on the now IDOs here, it struggling now, but some others are other like, what do you, yeah.
I don’t know how, if you have some observation or some stuff you see there, I mean,
Dragan Grabulovski: that’s the default plan if you, that’s also my advice when I was a, a startup coach. Yeah. You, it’s, it’s advisable that you, when you, when you found a company that you plan to really until phase two, until completion of phase two.
So you need to be prepared and you need to think. Already then how many patients do I need? Because this will determine, you know, the total amount of money and the, the, the number of people at what stage you need, which capabilities, resources, everything. So you start actually from the end of phase two.
Yeah. Backwards. Backwards to the, to the start. Yeah. And you, I, and that, that’s how it should be.
Philip Hemme: Yeah. Okay. And you plan your, your efficacy study, your big milestone. Yeah. Like by your infection point or, and then you go backwards. Yeah. And I guess if you get a really good deal in clinical
Dragan Grabulovski: and you make opportunistic.
Yeah.
Philip Hemme: Yeah. Yeah. I like that. I think that’s also one thing that came up a lot in in some episodes was like, in biotech, you want to have maximum op optionality. Yes. And, yeah.
Dragan Grabulovski: Over time. And that’s probably what, what I would say in one sentence as a job description of A CEO. Yeah. He has, or she has to create options for the board and the shares so that then we all together can decide
Philip Hemme: Stefano for, for other fellow, we just had the last base.
That’s my job as CEO is to create options. Yes. And yeah, I like that. I like that. Let’s, let’s transition just to like quick fire. So more like quick question, answer maybe five, five to 10 minutes. Some a bit more provocative questions, but let’s see. Well the first one is will you create a third, a third biotech?
I dunno.
Dragan Grabulovski: Yeah, we’ll see. For sure. Not now. Not now. Yeah. Because I dunno whether people know so TIO is keeping Ouris as a independent subsidiary. Yeah. So we can really develop now the molecules, we can make the pipeline. Yeah. We can use now all those, the resources and knowledge of clinical development of tio.
So it’s really a lot of fun. The whole team at Ataris. That’s good. And you have more
Philip Hemme: resources I guess to do it and everything,
Dragan Grabulovski: so that’s why I, okay.
Philip Hemme: It’s not like that I acquire the assets and then like No, it’s really independent
Dragan Grabulovski: social. I will stay. Yeah. Yeah. That’s good. Yeah. I was thinking you never know what is in 20 years, right?
Philip Hemme: Yeah. Yeah. We’ll see. Yeah. And why are you based here in, in a, I think, I don’t dunno how you pronounce it English, but least in ow. A Yeah, like I mean, except the lake view. I mean, most of the biotechs in, in Zurich or some on the ETH campus. Yeah. Like why, how come you are here?
Dragan Grabulovski: Yeah. I mean, we started in as many ETH spinoffs.
We, we started at ETH, so we rented labs there. Yeah. But then after a certain period of time, you have to move on. Yeah. And as you said, in Zurich, it’s the biotech park, which is based in Yeah. But there was no space when we had to leave ETH. Okay. So we were looking for alternatives and found here at the beautiful lake of Zurich.
Philip Hemme: Yeah. I thought maybe it was to, to be closer to souk, but no,
which is also just, just nearby. It’s good. Well opinionated, but who, who is the best a DC researcher? Europe. Japan,
Dragan Grabulovski: China or the us I don’t have all the insights to be able to answer this. I’m sorry. Yeah, but at is not so bad.
Philip Hemme: It’s good. Yeah, actually on this, so weapon from, from my, actually actually Europe is, is pretty good in a DC, especially with Astra.
And with Astra is actually quite a leader in, in a DC and you have quite a few startups also. And some companies like a DC Therapeutics, I think, than Lausanne. But then he said something like that. There’s probably more a DC researchers in China than anywhere else in the world. Yes. This is also my feeling.
Yeah. That’s also true. Okay. Yeah. But Japan is also really good. Yeah. Was others, so, okay. So more personal question. One, one mistake you made in the past 12 months. In
Dragan Grabulovski: the past 12 months. Yeah, I probably do mistakes every day. I You have a specific one? So, so I mean, as you’re referring to the past 12 months, they were pretty good for our alarms, I have to say.
Yeah. ’cause we closed the deal with two guy with j and j and then the acquisition and we had also other options. So that was quite probably, I did some fewer mistakes than I usually over the team. But in general I can, maybe more general I think coming or I, I grew up here in Switzerland and, and went here to school.
And the as a scientist, I have a scientist background. Yeah. I, at least in the beginnings I had, or we had all the tendency, you know, we make it perfect and then we go out and then we think it will be sold like this, and that’s not the case. Mm-hmm. And that was one of the, or key learnings, so to speak, that you have to go out as quickly as possible to get feedback and then you to make the evolution together with the outside world.
Yeah. I like this, this is what I,
Philip Hemme: which is not that intuitive when you’re a scientist, you think I work on my small idea, I don’t want to share it. And yeah,
Dragan Grabulovski: that’s a good one. I probably, I did tons of mistakes with Japanese culture, which I’m not aware of. So you have to ask my Japanese colleague,
Philip Hemme: they will never tell you no.
Or maybe after a few pins as a who is one of your bio European, if possible, biopharma heroes or a mentor that helped you a lot.
Dragan Grabulovski: I was influenced probably by several people. Again, here I would like to, thinking back of my whole journey, is I was fortunate enough to make my PhD in the group of Darion, who is really a pioneer of antibody antibody fragments, fusion proteins.
Okay. And when I was a PhD student, that was a time when one of the molecules where, where he was involved with this company went really to the patient. Okay. So, and that was somehow an eyeopener for me. That you can really, it’s possible from the bench, from the bench to, to go to the patient and that that has that, that had a lot of influence.
Yeah. Yeah.
Philip Hemme: That’s amazing.
Someone, someone from the industry.
Dragan Grabulovski: Yeah, I mean he’s now the CEO of, of Phylo.
Philip Hemme: Okay. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Makes me think a bit about what is what the, the lab behind Micro Partners Indians, pluck, what is it?
Dragan Grabulovski: Platoon, yeah. Platon ton. Yeah. Une. Une. Yeah. Great. There are several, I mean, there, there, I mean ‘
Philip Hemme: cause there’s also an antibody fragments and antibodies.
Yes.
Dragan Grabulovski: I mean there also molecular partners with cogen. We were on one hand competitors, but also very good colleagues and we have a very good relationship and I was following them all the time and it’s amazing what they have achieved. And also Glyco. Yeah. Roche Pablo Manel, for example. All, all interesting personalities a bit.
And there are many, many more.
Philip Hemme: Yeah. Many.
[01:00:53] Quickfire questions
Philip Hemme: Again, a bit more personal question. What, what’s one of your new habits that you adopted recently?
Dragan Grabulovski: I mean the, the 12 months were very intense, as you can imagine, because it was really almost in parallel having signed two guy j and j and acquisition Yeah.
And some other options that I cannot speak about. So usually as, as a biotech, if you have just one achieved, it’s, it’s, it’s already very good. And yet we almost in peril. So the whole team, we did I think really an amazing job. Yeah. Also, together with the board and everyone, so this is then where I took most and more care of myself and my family.
So to really force myself. To take free time. And this I keep on going, which is about, so this is a probably or a more, not a completely new habit, but a more habit that I take. Yeah. And this very important. Yeah. I like that. And very
Philip Hemme: good. Yeah. I like that. Makes me think that, especially as an entrepreneur, usually you, there’s some phases as well.
More intensity, a bit less intensity, and it’s important to have, to have the phases. You cannot last if you’re always in Exactly. Full intensity. Yes. Again, a bit more opinion, but what’s, what’s one of the European, we mentioned a lot, but one of the European biotech that stands out to you? Another one that we haven’t mentioned maybe.
Yeah.
Dragan Grabulovski: Yeah. Some of them we have mentioned. Yeah.
European,
Philip Hemme: yeah. I mean, obviously that impressed you recently or something again.
Dragan Grabulovski: Yeah, I mean I was, I al I, I always liked, I mean, on one hand we are competitors, but also if, if some of our competitors have very good results, it helps the whole industry.
This is also what we, and the early days of college and we, together with molecular partners, we always cheered when we were successful. I mean, of course we wanted to have the success as well, but immediately we got phone calls because we were in the same field. So it helps the whole field. So, and it was very amazing to see that some of the European a DC companies had lots of successes, right?
For example, CIX acquired by loans are then two bullies with two bullies. Dominic was on the show as well. Yeah. Big round. Very good deals. So I think this is amazing and won some of the. Advisors that we had, U UND who was the founder of NB Therapeutics, another a DC company. Yeah. So there were quite some examples that, yeah, that’s good.
That I can mention here. Yeah, that’s
Philip Hemme: good. So actually it’s I mean there’s definitely a lot of, I mean, and more and more good like European biotechs in Europe. It’s it’s really good to see like yeah, and early stage, later stage. I even have, what, what impressed me is now you have really like. I mean, Argen X is a bit outlier, but it’s crazy.
Like they made it all to the pay like to, to to, to the market fully own. And I think like $45 billion market cap or something. Or map Argen map insane. Yeah. And BTech also, it’s, yeah, it’s amazing. Yeah. To finish, I mean, you, we mentioned I think a lot of takeaways and lessons, but do we have, maybe we can, we can break it down in a few, but do you have one advice or another advice to let’s say a PhD student who wants to spin out or to, to yourself back in 20 2005?
Reckon.
Dragan Grabulovski: Yeah. I mean. One thing that I mentioned is we to go out yeah. As quickly as possible. And the other thing is, what is very difficult is the perseverance. Mm. And this is, this is not, this is not coming from me. I also heard some other founders and, and, and entrepreneurs there is probably, I now, I think Steve Jobs mentioned this in an interview that what he thinks that a successful entrepreneur distinguishes from a not so successful, if you can call it, is the perseverance.
Because he also says, and I can confirm that it’s very tough, you know, you see, you could get many nos. And then some things, even science, they don’t work. You have to adapt. You get a lot of
Philip Hemme: Yeah.
Dragan Grabulovski: And, and so perseverance. Is is something that, that you, you, you probably need to have.
Philip Hemme: Yeah.
Dragan Grabulovski: But then at the same time, you need to be very flexible and adopt to market.
You wanted you to be very stubborn still. Yeah. But also flexible. And that’s the balance that is very tough. But still probably perseverance is, is more important. Yeah. Yeah. And you cannot blame if somebody gives up or, or say, oh no, that’s nothing for me, because it’s really tough. So it can be tough.
Philip Hemme: It’s something we could discuss could talk for, for a long time. Yeah. Especially if how, maybe understand how do you, I feel one thing with per, I mean, as you said, perseverance and flexibility. Are this being super convinced and not changing too much. Yes. But also being flexible when it’s need to
Dragan Grabulovski: be.
Yeah.
Philip Hemme: The pivot. Yeah. The pivot is really important. But on the perseverance, which I think is one thing that I find very difficult is you want to persevere, but at the same time, unless you, you also want to like Yeah. Be flexible or like not, I mean, sometimes you, it’s not the right idea you’re working on.
Yes. Which is very hard to know, like Yeah. Is where you put the limits. Yeah. But in general, I would say what, yeah. Going a bit more towards perseverance, usually the right thing to
Dragan Grabulovski: do in general. But then also if you look also at other, other, and many successful companies, they hardly ever start or very successful on the initial idea.
So they, I think more than 70%, if you look at the statistics Yeah, yeah. Of public companies or multi-billion companies, they started with another idea. Yeah. So pivot is also very important. Yeah. But again, it’s also even in
Philip Hemme: biotech. Yeah. Even when you have a tech. Yeah. Because in, in tech, in startup is we pivot all the time, but it’s yeah.
That’s good. And maybe to finish one, one advice to more like a bit more experienced life science professionals, whatever, someone in his late thirties.
Dragan Grabulovski: Still young. Yeah. Still very young,
Philip Hemme: but not like 25 PSG. Maybe a bit, a bit more advanced. What’s the one thing that comes to mind? Okay. When,
Dragan Grabulovski: but again, probably this is the same, like believe in your vision or remind yourself of your vision and that then.
Go ahead.
Philip Hemme: Yeah. Okay. Just go ahead. It’s good. Yeah. Cool. Yeah, great discussion. I think it’s a good way to Good, good good finishing. So yeah. Thanks a lot again, Phillip. Yeah. Congrats again. Exit and thank you.
Dragan Grabulovski: Yeah, cool. Pleasure.
Philip Hemme: I’m impressed by Dragon’s track record of building and exiting biotechs. I’m also impressed by what he has been building with RRS in the a DC space. If you have enjoyed this episode, please hit the like, follow or review button. Any of these actions would help many more people discover the podcast. And if you want to go even further, you can make a donation by clicking on the link in the description below.
We have plenty of similar videos on our channel, so please free to check it out. I would also be curious to hear what you think. So if you could leave a comment wherever you are or shoot me an email at Philip at Flo bio. Alright, thanks for watching to the end and see you in the next episode.
