Dominik Schumacher, Tubulis 🇩🇪 | Founder-led ADC Biotech ⭐️ | E19

We’re in Munich 🇩🇪 with a “true” biotech founder, Dominik Schumacher of Tubulis. Not many biotechs in Europe are led by a founder PhD under 40 and have scaled to raising over 100M. I know only two, one is Thomas at Owkin and the other one is Dominik at Tubulis.

We talked about building a champion ADC biotech, the super hot ADC sphere, and the difference between luck and success.

💎 ABOUT THE SPEAKER

Dominik has had an incredible career, which he started from a young age. With the founding of Tubulis, he has won many start-up awards and in 2019 he was awarded MIT’s Innovators Under 35. As a life science investor, he has invested early in many European biotech companies.

🔗 LINKS MENTIONED

Transcript

[00:00:00] Intro

Dominik Schumacher: But we forgot one thing, we didn’t do any market validation. Again. So we failed, we didn’t get the grants. And then we went out to really talk to as many people as possible about our platform. People were telling us, Antibody drug candidates, why are you doing it? It doesn’t work. What led to the decision?

What do you think it is? No, the lead word behind the money. China seems to be really big on ADCs as well. There’s a lot happening in China. There’s a lot of ADC development happening and quality is really good. There’s competition that we look at seriously and take seriously.

Philip Hemme: Bienvenue to a new episode. I’m Yoastolep and on this show I’m interviewing the best Europeans in biotech to help you grow. There are very few biotechs in Europe that are founder led. The founder, young founder under 40. And that I’ve scaled in the hundreds of millions of Eurodollars raised. And actually, I know only two.

Thomas Clausell from Rokken, who was on the show before. And Dominic from Tubulus. So, I went to Munich to chat with him. We were in touch before, but it’s the first time I met him offline. He is a true founder. And Has an amazing story of building a ADC champion. So here’s my conversation with Dominik and if you are enjoying it, please hit the like follow button.

Dominik Schumacher: All right, welcome to the show Dominik. Welcome. Welcome to Tubaliz. It’s so great to have you. Thank you. 

[00:01:44] Entrepreneurial biotech family

Philip Hemme: I want to start with your personal background and and how you got to be Let’s say one of the best biotech founders, CEOs, under 40 in Europe. It’s not that, that many in that, in that level. And actually talked about you was, was Andreas Schmidt.

I just, I just mentioned as well. And, and you mentioned that you were, you come from a, we put big life science family as well. I’m wondering how, just if you can tell a bit more about this and how it impacted you to where you, where you are now 

Dominik Schumacher: and 

Philip Hemme: to your, to your journey. 

Dominik Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah. It’s true. I’ve been very exposed to entrepreneurship from the get go.

My father is a biotech founder as well. One of the very early days in, in Germany. And that was an experience for me because it really. Show me what it mean, what does it mean, all the good and the bad. And from very early on, I had the motivation and I was looking for things. Okay, I want to do something myself.

I want to, I want to also spin something out or build. The new technology, the one example is I was, I was 12 or so, and I was looking at, I was at the doctor and then I went to the pharmacist and I had to take this paper with me. I was like, why, why do I have to take this paper? Why can it not be automatic and why do I need to take the prescription?

So I thought, okay, I can, I can do some web pages, so probably I will be able to program a system that enables you to do these digital prescription. I took all my my energy into it and was going, I went to pharmacists and to the associations and also, Hey, this is my idea. Let’s do that. And they, the feedback was, you know, our customers are 70, 80 years old.

They love the paper. Don’t take the paper away from them. And it’s too complicated, exactly like that. So I had, from that, I took two learnings for me. The first one was know your customers, the end customers, not the first customer, but really the one that is using the product. And also in the end, I was like, ah, I should have done it.

I should have done it and tried it out because, and I got, I mean, one, one interaction, two interactions, and I got scared. And then the take for me was. And if I wouldn’t have been alone, I would have done it. So find someone who you can really rely on them to go to that journey and really know you. It’s an amazing lessons 

Philip Hemme: also for, for where you are now.

It resonates a lot. I mean, I, I started building stuff when I was 11 as well. And like building, I mean, not the business, but more that’s a business and then started with redundancy and stuff. And I was always building so I can a hundred percent relate. And I think that’s, I mean, that’s a trade that is, you know, To me, like a sign that you’re really a founder from, like, comes from deep down when as a young, you’re already building things, and then if you don’t need money and if you don’t need anything, it’s a very good sign that you were quite made to be entrepreneur.

Dominik Schumacher: Yes. I mean, it’s really always this looking for, it’s so much fun at that point. It’s so much fun to come up with ideas and try to get them into reality. 

Philip Hemme: And then, so down the line, you still, then you went to study basically life sciences, I think, chemical biology, if I’m correct, or chemistry and business, chemistry and business.

I’m curious how you then balanced the urge to film and the continuing to study, especially when you did your PhD. Yeah, I had some challenges there. 

Dominik Schumacher: Which I can totally understand. I mean, There were many other ideas in between, which failed, but I was blessed because I found, I was looking for a project where I could do my PhD and that can translate.

And I was blessed to find someone who was, I was then working with on that project, which is now I see Zoe Jonas, who also saw that potential. And then we were basically, I was looking, I was finding quite some, the first half of what. My, my learnings that I mentioned, I found there. So it was actually easy to stay in it because it was the project to be founded.

Philip Hemme: That’s amazing. It’s amazing. You went into your PhD, you was already the reason for entrepreneur mindset. And then how did it go during the PhD, like between the PhD and then the, the spin out, like what were the big 

Dominik Schumacher: steps? So we were, we, we started to work on the technology and the platform and we were really excited about the results that we were getting.

And I was Jodas is a, is a fantastic scientist. I know science, I can do it. But he’s fantastic. He’s really good. So that was kind of was our role. And I was always trying to, okay, how can we get funds for that? So as you can independently work on that. And that’s how we were doing things. I was still in Berlin back then.

He was in Munich and it was prior to video calls. So we were actually on the phone all the time. And it was super funny because at one time Jonas told me that the, the LMU. Came to him saying, okay, here must be something wrong. This is the biggest phone bill in the entire department. It’s your phone broken.

And it was not because we were talking. And then we were, we were actually in Germany. You have these fantastic translational programs that you can apply for from out of the CENP, a university. It’s called Exist, Fossils, Transfer. And GoBio after. Yeah, it’s similar to GoBio. And it sounded a little funny.

Fantastic. So we did that, but I forgot one thing. We, we wrote a grant, super good, but we forgot one thing of my learnings from the beginning. I blanked about it. We didn’t, again. So we failed. We didn’t get the grants. And then we went out to, we talked to as many people as possible about our platform, the positioning of it, what we should do with it.

People were telling us, antibody drug candidates, why are you doing it? It doesn’t work. And we were trying to find, to, we were saying all the time, yeah, that’s why we do it. But the explanation we were trying to find why we do it and how we position it, we did via market validation. And then we got the grants and then basically from that on, we were able to do further validation and then founded the company and did some VC finance.

[00:08:46] Market validation

Philip Hemme: I like that a lot. I like that market validation parts because I feel like, especially I’d say in Europe, especially even in Germany, where You always approach it from a science and then we’ll find an application, but I think it’s obvious, like, okay, I’ve got science. So there will be an application, but I think it’s not that easy.

Can you maybe share a bit more there on the, some of the lessons as well, you had there on like, for, I mean, potential farmers listening to us, like on the release of market validation, how you. Yeah. How do you approach it though? 

Dominik Schumacher: Yeah. First of all, talk to as many people as possible. I guess many different people.

Many different people. Many different people. And I mean, you will hear a lot of different things. I think the, what do you really need to find out your way and master in the end is to filter the important information that you get because you will hear everything basically. But then also really, really try to.

get something concrete out of these interactions. And for us, I mean, back then it was really, we were starting to, okay, maybe we can do material transfer agreements, letter of intents, these kinds of things, and at the end only easy to sign paper, but they meant for us. They meant quite a lot. And we were, it’s a validation.

Yeah, it’s a validation. It’s a validation. And, and of course, also listen to what people say, but don’t take everything for granted as well. I think this is a fine, fine line. 

Philip Hemme: How did, You managed on lesson filtering feedback. I think one of the, at least also for me, one of the key lesson was like, do it for long enough, like enough perseverance to let the time to have positive negative feedback.

So like I was stolen even now as a company, but Labiotek were like, okay, we do at least 18 months full time. I mean, we are full time was at the end of our studies, like doing it. to see if it works or not. How did you, like, I mean, I guess you were kind of doing your PhD or the end of the PhD as well.

But did you have also a bit of this of like, okay, I do whatever it takes, whatever happens, I do at least 

Dominik Schumacher: 12, 18 months. We had that once. It’s funny that you ask it. We had it once. And that was, Actually, after failing for the for these first grants and it was one failure then after the other for, for similar reasons, but they came in and then we were like, cause I said about it.

So if I don’t know the exact timing, but by let’s say the end of the year, there’s not a light at the end of the tunnel, then we’ll just stop and that’s going to be fine. We’d worked out at the end, but this was really the only, only situation. And I think it’s also part of my personality that I’m not thinking about this too much.

For me, it’s a healthy piece of naiveness. 

Philip Hemme: I think it’s amazing for people listening. Also, like I mean, it always sounds, if you look at tubeless now, and if you look backwards, it always sounds good. Like, I mean, first it looks easier than it is and it looks more obvious, but when you are in the moment, it’s really not.

And that’s, I think, one of the most difficult thing about startups in tech or in biotech, in startups in general, we were also three months away from stopping. And so, and I think most of founders I know in biotech or tech, they are at this moment, very close to failure. And I think it’s very hard. to manage this moment where you, you wake up one morning, okay, I’m doing it, it would work.

And the other morning you’re like, fuck, what am I doing here? Like it will never work. 

Dominik Schumacher: That’s true. And I think it’s only natural that you sometimes have this, but that it’s so good that if you’re not doing it alone, I’m so sure there are so many out there that can do it alone. I’m happy that I don’t have to do it alone.

And it helps me a lot because then you can just simply, you’ll find you have someone to talk to about it. You’ll find a solution. 

Philip Hemme: I can I mean, I think especially in a more deeper tech, biotech, it’s so complicated. So, so, so hard that alone, I think it’s almost impossible. I mean, besides if you arrive with like, whatever, you made a massive exit and you arrive with a hundred million, whatever, own capital and then, okay, it’s maybe a bit of a different game, but otherwise, yeah.

Dominik Schumacher: That’s true. And I think it’s also, I mean, we are looking at this this way and it also helps us or guides us a lot, how we actually interact with our team, man. It’s a team effort and it’s one of the, this is the most, one of the most amazing achievements that we actually have. And we have such an amazing team where it’s just so much, it’s a privilege to be working with these talented people.

And everybody is so committed and everybody’s running in the basically same direction. And it’s only in for the, for getting this innovation where we are so convinced about and the patients and really understanding, okay, how much impact can we now have for these patients? And that is, that’s possible because it’s a, it’s a joint ride.

Excellent. And that’s 

Philip Hemme: what matters a lot at the end of the day. That . Yeah. 

[00:14:32] Why Munich

Philip Hemme: Maybe, I mean, we took a bit of a parallel to the final story, but maybe going back to, to UA in Berlin. Mm-Hmm. Uns was in, in Munich. And then you both decided to set up the entity in, in Munich. Mm-Hmm. . Where was kind has always a little bit this burden.

Unique competition, but what’s, what was, yeah, what led the decision? 

Dominik Schumacher: No, the lead word, but I mean, back then, you know, you had the money is a good answer, which is a good answer. But it was not. It was in the time of the non dilutive funding, a real a German exist, which is what you can apply for everywhere.

But then we were also applying for grants like M to the power of four is basically a Bavarian grant. So more grants and then Bavaria. 

Philip Hemme: It’s a, it’s a good, I mean, it’s, it’s a good example also of how grants, I mean, can work also, I mean, work successfully and also how the grants and the infrastructure is a key factor for, for ecosystem.

Yes. It’s a good example. Like, I mean, Berlin definitely lacks a bit and even, you know. If I’ve been there and stuff, but from a infrastructure, for sure, Berlin Munich is better, you know, better set up and has a bit more critical size. I mean, 

Dominik Schumacher: that’s true. 

Philip Hemme: A bit, a bit more, I mean, 

Dominik Schumacher: yeah, it’s a bit more Berlin is changing also from that end rapidly and, It’s true what you’re say in where, where I am, but there’s also a need to continue, continue, be in that position and to continue to think that could we could do a little bit more there.

Philip Hemme: Yeah. I think all over Europe we could Yeah, true. And it doesn’t really matter at the end if it’s Berlin and I think it’s, it’s really Europe US starts to be a bit different, but even then it doesn’t really matter. I mean, we had so many guests on the show and like at the end, I think one trade I saw. And many of them was like, they’re thinking very European or global from the, from the beginning.

And they don’t really care if they are in Berlin, Munich, wherever, small city Dijon, small city in Spain, they just try to be a global, have a US presence. I saw you, you guys have also, opened in the US pretty early. I think that’s a key thing. I mean. Yeah. 

Dominik Schumacher: And I mean, yeah, it does not really. It depends a little on how you want to build your company, of course, also, I mean, for us, another key reason to be in Munich is.

the talent, the scientists, the big amount of the talent pool is just big.

[00:17:33] Founder-led biotechs

Philip Hemme: Now that’s maybe talking about, still on the kind of founder led, I think that, I mean, there’s really, as I mentioned, kind of in the first sentence, but the first intro, but there’s not that many, let’s say founder led biotechs in Europe in general, especially people who came out of the PhD and you reach like a critical size in.

Where you guys are, let’s say raising three digits rounds. And first, there’s not that many biotechs who raise three digits rounds, but where was it with a founder CEO? I think in the U S it’s quite a big thing. I think in the last few years where some tech people come into biotech and like, what the fuck is happening here?

Why isn’t the founder like founder scientists to make it a company? You have like Curie, Curie. bio or Curie. bio who like specifically focus on financing or only like founder, founder led biotechs. Maybe you, you can like, talk a bit about this, like what’s, I don’t know, what’s your, yeah, what’s your experience like, why, yeah, how, how do you see it?

Dominik Schumacher: Whether, what is a better model or 

Philip Hemme: Yeah, like how, first, I mean, how did you manage that? Why is there so few?

Dominik Schumacher: I mean, I think it’s, it’s a very intense, tough journey and you need to be, you need to challenge yourself also personally all the time. And not only the company, but you also need to challenge yourself. How can I grow and how can I create most value for that company? And, for me, one of the key ways to do that, and I don’t know when this was is a reason why I’m still here, but But I always wanted to hire extremely talented people that are much more talented than I am and their specific expertise and really ensure that they can do what is best for the company.

So my job is really every, all the others, they should, they are in the position to, okay, what, what do I need to do for this drug to be successful? I don’t care about the budget. I, what is the best thing for it. And then they come to me and I, my job is to try to find money that we can do that. And that’s a little bit how I, how I look at my role, one of the parts of my role.

Yeah. And of course my role has changed tremendously and you need to be willing to do that. You need to, and you need to be happy in that role as well. So it’s not for everyone. Yeah. And I can totally understand if someone says no, but. I love the science. I want to be involved with the science. I don’t have crazy, I mean, if you compare it to the beginning where it was basically in every science call, I’m, I’m not in science calls anymore, only in the ones where basically a lot of Discussions have already happened and conclusions have already been taken.

Philip Hemme: So even asco, you didn’t even go to 

Dominik Schumacher: asco? I didn’t go to asco. This. Okay. We had, we had a lot of other things going on where my contribution was more valuable and that’s why I didn’t go to as, but I mean, I, ASCO is amazing. . 

Philip Hemme: That’s, yeah, I like that. I think there’s a, I mean, there’s definitely a personal fit as well.

Can you talk a bit about, I mean. I think for the founding scientist, it’s a bit more common to have CSO who’s late, but especially in the CEO position, especially in Europe, it rapidly tends to be, okay, let’s, let’s bring in a experienced CEO. I guess you had this, or like this challenge or these discussions, especially, I guess, with the VCs.

Dominik Schumacher: Oh, how was 

Philip Hemme: that 

Dominik Schumacher: thing? I mean, I think, as long as everybody has a feeling that the cereal of the current cereal of a company is the one who can drive value best for the company, this discussion will not happen. This is a discussion didn’t happen. This is, how hard to believe you. No, I mean, I, I was not exposed to such a discussion.

Okay. And but it would, I mean, in the end if it would happen, it would be okay if we come to the conclusion that there’s two companies in a phase where someone else can do it. And that’s how I look at it. And that’s why I’m also super relaxed about it. Because. This, I’m, I mean, I’m the CEO because I want this company to grow and want, and I am pretty sure about that I am the one who can have this company grow and bring it to success.

If you come to the situation where this is not the case anymore, it’s also time to say, maybe now someone else. Yeah, 

Philip Hemme: I like 

Dominik Schumacher: that. 

Philip Hemme: I mean, I like it at the end, I think. I mean, at the end, I don’t think there is a, A bit like the Q value and stuff in the US, which I’m not too fan is like this, like, Oh, like one model is better than the other model.

At the end of the day, I think like, it’s very multifactorial, as you said, like, it’s exactly the point. And some models and both models, I think, or even if you take the lot of models and can work very well, I think. And yeah, yeah, it’s super. And he works less well for the ego of some of the founding scientists, but it can work for in general.

That’s good. You agree on this? Actually, it’s funny because in, I looked up also for when, when I saw that kind of this founder led biotech and I looked into in Europe, which ones are like founder led and what is, what is especially, let’s say founders for a PG and you have actually a lot of successful biotechs.

So some of the bigger ones. Where was founded at PhDs, but then it took, I mean, I was that some of them, like molecular partners actually, I worked with them and Mm-Hmm, , there’s still, there’s still like, I think there were six PhDs or something, and still a PhDs. It took them a while to, to grow. But I mean, and more of this was the same at this I think was Postoc or PhD.

Mm-Hmm. was same. Selectus influenza was the same. Vac was the same. I mean, some of the big biotechs actually were the founder. I think sometimes it might take a bit longer, especially for the many. Found a CEO to also get the experience and all the skills. I mean, there’s a lot of skills to learn, but at the end of the day, it seems that it works quite well as well.

On the, on the younger one, I think the only one that comes to my mind is Thomas Clausell, actually from Orkan. It’s a bit more on the, on the tech bio side. And he was on the show as well. I think it’s you guys as a two, I think, if not the two only ones who are in this like range and the scale and still in the 40, at least, I don’t know any other, maybe you can, if you know, you can add.

Congrats on that.

It’s certainly impressive. 

[00:25:20] Balancing 3 kids

Philip Hemme: To finish on the personal side, I mean, and then I want to move really on, on Tribulus and really on going into the, the bio part. What I heard also actually from, from Stephanie was that you have also on the family side, you have three kids and that, that was also, I mean, quite, I mean, that’s surprising, but, quite a, quite a thing as well to build a company that scale and having a family at the same time, how did you, can you like elaborate a bit on this or share some of the challenges or how did you manage to, to do both at the same time? 

Dominik Schumacher: I mean, first of all, of course, with tremendous support, from, from my family, from my wife.

But it’s also, but the challenge is sometimes for me is. We cannot be, you cannot be the perfect father and you cannot be the perfect CEO at the same time that just doesn’t work. But what you can do is maximize the time I do, for example, I have a kiss and sends it, it’s super high quality time and that, then when you’re, there’s no email, no phone in that time, right?

These are, so some kind of principles that I try. No, I don’t always succeed, but there’s things that I try to do to. to, to manage that. And it’s also, I mean, there’s a lot of energy. I have three boys. It’s a lot of energy. And it’s, it’s also, it’s sometimes tough, but it’s also really great. And it’s, it’s just giving me also a lot of it.

That’s, that’s, 

Philip Hemme: I mean, I’m, I’m in the, now thinking about kids or having the discussion with my wife as well. So it’s kind of, I can, I can feel in one of the challenge I have, especially as a founder, is like, especially now it’s kind of very early stages, a lot of Uncertainty But it’s kind of managing this and there’s definitely some trade offs.

How did, what, what kind of trade offs did you have to make? 

Dominik Schumacher: Yeah, well, again, I mean, the trade off is for me that it’s impossible to be perfect and everything at the same time. You can be, I mean, you need to find white times when you are fully perfect for the kids and then when it’s really is needed, you need to be perfect for the company, but it’s.

challenging sometimes to be there at the same time. That’s a, that’s kind of the trade off. But of course it also needs, I mean, you can also, well, earlier on you can interact and talk with your kids about this and talk what they’re trying to find out what they need and how you can support them best.

And I think this gives a lot of connection also. That’s fair. I think, 

Philip Hemme: especially, I mean, if there’s three, I don’t know how close they’re together, but that’s can be challenging versus, I don’t know, one is already quite challenging, two, three. But that’s also fine. It’s also, I mean,

let’s, let’s see. I mean, let’s see for myself. Maybe I will, I will message you at some point. Always.

It could actually, I quite like this. Like I cannot be perfect, but I can, let’s say, try to be perfect on this mindset. I think it’s also quite a founder mindset. Like usually a lot of founders are very perfectionist in general. I But one mindset I like to apply quite a lot and it goes in that direction is like, I would just try to do my best.

So try to be the best CEO and the best father at the same time, I mean, in my case, whatever else. I just try to do my best with what’s in my control. 

Dominik Schumacher: And then, yeah, let’s see. Yeah. And also understand what is actually the best mean for your kids. Yeah. Doesn’t need to do as the best is actually. Know your customers.

What they, what they, what they need. 

Philip Hemme: Yeah. No, I agree.

[00:29:31] Tubulis & ADCs

Philip Hemme: Maybe moving to, to tubulism, I mean, on the, on the technology, you mentioned you’re in the ADC space. Can you describe a bit broadly the, I mean, you have platform company, describe it broadly like where you’re at, 

Dominik Schumacher: no? Yeah. I mean, ADC is a super hot space and it’s great to be in that space.

Obviously helps us a lot that there’s so much attention on the format. But what we wanted to do, and I mean, when we started, I also already mentioned before, everybody was like, Okay, it doesn’t work. Why are you doing that? Pharma companies were shutting down their the ADC units. It’s crazy because it’s not even 10 years ago.

Too long ago. Yeah. That’s crazy. But that’s, that’s what happened. And of course everybody’s asking, yeah, but they just closed. So why, why, why are you doing it? And what we want to, I mean, now there’s so much has been done in this space. We have so much knowledge now and we, we, we try to harvest that knowledge and really use it.

To, to make, try to get these format to fulfill their full promise. We have right now, ADCs in the clinics approved. We see a lot of patient benefit when it comes to overall response rates. Patients do respond. And we really see that these molecules can deliver. And reduce tumor burden, but the duration of a response actually is not that different.

It is improved, but it’s not the same of a difference compared to chemotherapy. And that’s, what we want to do and want to address with our platform. And what we, where we have been trying to make sure that we don’t impact the antibodies properties, even though we load them with a lot of super hydrophobic molecules, make sure that these antibodies actually don’t interact with healthy tissues and can actually deliver constantly over a very long timeframe payload to the tumor so that the tumor Payload then can really actually, destroy the tumor and reduce tumor burn.

And we do that by different, there’s a lot of, there’s flexibility. That’s what we, what we want to have when we design ADCs. It’s different to what CL Internet Access, that linker, one payload, and I’ve tried it for many different targets. We think every ADC Worst case, every ADC looks different. 

Philip Hemme: Okay.

Yeah, because I saw even early presentation you gave was really this like combination of the antibody, the linker and the payloads, but you had some technology around there. Can you be a bit more specific on the, like, what’s actual technology in terms of doing this combinations? 

Dominik Schumacher: Yeah. So when it comes to, I mean, antibodies, we, We, we have antibody experts at house, we get antibodies from external, we in license them.

But it’s not like we are a target innovation company, it’s not like we are antibody engineer, smooth pros, that’s not awkward. You’re not gentlemen. 

Philip Hemme: No, we’re 

Dominik Schumacher: not. We, our core expertise lies within the chemistry and how we can use this to, to create these ADCs. So we attach things to an antibody. We do that via, for example, the top tech technology.

We do it via the P5 technology, independent, independence of what we attach. One is better than the other. That’s where we have flexibility. You can attach two, three, two, four, six, eight. Even false payload doesn’t matter. And we always have these, we call it biophysical properties of the antibodies. And then we have various linkers with different solubility enhancers, cleavage mechanisms.

And we have a tool that we call Alco5, which is basically now at the other part of the spectrum. So if you have antibody, linker, payload, P5 Taptic is what, how you add things to the antibody. Alco5 is how you add thing payloads and. To the linker. Yeah. To the linker, exactly. And, this has also been super limited.

And with Arco five, we now open up the space of things that we can actually attach and we can deliver to, go to new mode of actions, more integrated mode of actions have an answer to and a resistency, be able to treat patients I mean, had to, was super. Super, super, paved the way for ADCs now to optimize one inhibitors.

Everybody works on it. We also, our lead asset, are making use of these patents. But we also start to see patients with resistance, you know. So there is always a need to continue to innovate and bring new mode of actions. And that’s what we enabled with AlcoFluff. 

Philip Hemme: I understand that and I heard also that, from my understanding, that the increased amount of payload is also really a challenge.

As in, you can attach 2, 4, but once you want to 8 or you even mention 12, that’s very hard and you are one of the only ones who can attach so much and still have a very stable confirmation. That’s, yeah, that’s right. 

Dominik Schumacher: Yeah, I think, I mean, it’s the, the, why is it hard? Because put so much things to an antibody that, where the antibody is not made for.

So basically, it it’s too much burden, kind of. And that’s the drug, drug antibody ratio. Exactly. And then you have better, You have bad biophysical properties, so it starts to aggregate, or you have premature cleavage of linker payload because of chemistry not being good. You have unspecific interactions with healthy tissues.

And that’s basically, I think we are not the only ones that can do a HIDAL, but we are one of the only ones, if not the only one, that can do it and still make sure that we remain the properties of the antibody that it had in the first place. 

Philip Hemme: How, how easy is this to measure this, this antibody property?

Like, 

Dominik Schumacher: Oh, there’s various different ways of doing it. So you can do like hydrophilic interaction chromatography, and then you measure directly the hydrophobicity of the molecule. And how it changes, you can you can, of course, you can also always measure the binding, you can measure aggregation, you can do pharmacokinetics studies where you see, do I have aggregation, do I have increased, clearance, which could be meaning you have increased unspecific interactions.

Philip Hemme: I mean, my question the other way around was like, how is it to prove for you, for you, for tubulus that you can do 8, 12 and still have very high biophysics? Yeah. 

Dominik Schumacher: I mean, in the end it comes to, to, to half life. What does it do in, and then live in the organism how long can the antibody actually be exposed?

Philip Hemme: Okay. Yeah, that’s good. Because I, I saw, so like as you said, I mean, ADCs are just super hot. We can talk a bit later about it on the whole space. It’s, I mean, it’s fascinating space what’s happening at the moment, but it’s really hot. But I also wondering where’s the innovation really was because I, I saw one, one exit was Mablink in France was, was last year, I think it was.

One was the biggest exit in, in French biotech last year to, to, I think it was j and j. Mm-Hmm. . Correct, correct. But they were really on the linker technology, I believe. Gen Mels acquisition, what was it? General, the profile bio. Yeah. It was also, I think on the, on the linker 

Dominik Schumacher: was 

Philip Hemme: a fol 

Dominik Schumacher: light receptor of everything.

A . Yeah. They bought the product. 

Philip Hemme: Yeah. And so but the thing. At least I remember listening to an interview from Jan from GenMap saying that they had also Linker technologies that GenMap didn’t have, I guess. Yeah. I mean, I was, I was, yeah just wondering exactly where the, where the differentiation is.

[00:38:25] ADC space is crowded

Philip Hemme: Because also one thing about ADC is like, if ADC is too crowded, I mean, I will show you the, the graph, but it was, in short, this, this figure, you know, Well, it was just, I guess, I guess, you know, that kind of figure, but it was like, that’s just like, in your case, like 2. whatever 53 in the clinics was the same mass for the same payload, like, I mean, and some in phase one, two, I mean, on the linker sounds like, I mean, there’s of course, a lot of options, but also a lot, a lot of people doing something.

So yeah. But, but I think you answered already quite well on like how you differentiate and how, you know, what, at least the technology makes you unique. So, I mean, yeah, and, and also what I just saw, I mean, the great news, I think was this week, last week, you dozed the first patient, or recently at least.

We dozed the first patient, yeah. So you’re a clinical company now. Clinical company. Amazing, right? Very exciting to us, yeah. So that’s a phase one to A. And at the same time you got FastTrack on the same program, if it was in the same week, 

Dominik Schumacher: really. Very shortly after, we got FastTrack. 

Philip Hemme: So that’s, I mean, that’s amazing.

Can you tell a bit more on the Yeah, so dozing and the FastTrack of what’s, yeah, also how you differentiate there. 

Dominik Schumacher: Yeah. And this is an, so this program is a NAPI to be targeting, ADC for treating patients and not wearing and non small saline caps. And that P2B was not in the, actually in the crowded space.

Oh, it’s actually, we are and this, this, the, you. The uniqueness of the target is that it’s quite well understood. And we are first in class for that for that target. And we are, we are super convinced based on the preclinical data that we have a very special program there. We have very long lasting efficacy profiles in preclinical experiments, very good tolerability profiles.

And of course, now we need to translate this. And if this comes true, these really long lasting. efficacy profiles to see that and patients, if this translation works, then this will be messed. 

Philip Hemme: How, like, how big is the trial and how, like, what’s the kind of expectations on the response rate and the long lasting?

Dominik Schumacher: We do have, of course, we do have clear expectations. We CMO that has a very good idea, but, kind of, kind of covered it. 

Philip Hemme: But I guess it’s a. I’m pretty small. I like the smaller trial. It’s not that. Phase 1, 2, 

Dominik Schumacher: A, like, well, it’s always good, important to have, you need to have sufficient data. You need to be able to understand the drug.

And with the trial, how we designed the trial, we are very confident that we will be able to do it. 

Philip Hemme: Okay. Oh, you didn’t, but you cannot disclose how many patients you are targeting or that’s not on the clinicaltrial. gov 

Dominik Schumacher: design or like? I know exactly how much we will handle target, but there’s also a number in the clinical trial of COVID, I guess, yes.

Philip Hemme: For those interested, you can check out the exact detail. Okay, now that’s, that’s good. I didn’t see this, that you were, I kind of guessed, but I didn’t see that you were really first in class on this target, but that’s, that’s To the best of our knowledge. 

Dominik Schumacher: Yeah. I mean, there’s so much ongoing on so many things under the radar.

Philip Hemme: That’s good. On the, on the fundraising side, on the financial side, I mean, you said you were also in charge and you’ve been super successful there. And actually that’s how I first heard about you guys, via Sophia from, from Andera. Yeah, I know. Very well. And she told me I Check, check them out. Take the, yeah.

There we saw it. That was the, the series B we got the numbers here at 63 million artisanal dollars, May 2022. And she led the round. She was amazing. And she’s, she’s great. I mean, yeah, it’s she, she’s great VC. And then before that you had a 11 million series a dollars again, that July, 2020, that was Biomath partners at the Grindr fund as well.

And then the last round, B2, B2, but, well, at least another round, I mean, I would. Probably call it more a series C, but March, 2024, and that was the more than a hundred million, a hundred thirty eight million dollars equity ventures. So the X XLSP next tech, and you even had the U S U S venture.

Can you, I don’t know, like just share a bit, how, how did it go through the fundraising? I guess that ADC is so crowded. So much traction behind ADC was, I guess, a challenge, but also a massive opportunity. Can you like share a bit on how, how it went for the funnel? Yeah. And you went the whole COVID thing, you race, basically for the whole COVID 

Dominik Schumacher: thing.

And maybe I can, I can tell you a bit on our last race because here we, it was really for us super important to get, to build trust and get exposure in the U. S. I mean, it’s so, such an important market. We are a European based biotech company and we will always be a European based biotech company, but of course.

We, we need to build the trust and we need to get access to the financial markets there. So that was a key driver behind us doing this additional financing round. And we, we, we did it in a, in a, in a phase where, still massive downturn, but of course we were confident to do it because of the ADCI.

And also because we are. I have this partnership, the deal with BMS that obviously gave us exposure and validation. So, that’s basically the reason why we went out and why we why we did this additional financing race and super, super happy that we, get, these folks. And also, I mean, next tech for me, next tech is, it’s a hybrid investor between Europe, Europe and U. S. Mostly in Switzerland. They started in Switzerland, but they are super exposed to the U. S. And they have an extremely good network. Very talented people. Extremely, great fund. And yeah, so that definitely helped us. And of course, this was a joint decision with our investors from the series B and from the series A round, because timing was for us, it was just right.

Philip Hemme: That sounds yeah. And I guess it was almost two years after the round before, so, was right time also to, to get that. I was about to ask you a song, like why, why you didn’t want to. A US investor to lead or co lead. I guess you went, so it was next to, I mean, being kind of half, and I guess you were discussing with many other VCs as well, like you can imagine, like, like in other rounds.

[00:46:12] Deep Track Capital

Philip Hemme: Maybe one, one thing I’m curious also, you, you mentioned you had a deep track capital in it and Fraser and both are like really big specialty investors in the top, at least deep track. I like, I recently, actually this week I saw them like randomly in the, in the figure that they have over 5 billion in the management, I think, and are basically in the top 15 healthcare funds, specialist funds globally.

Which is pretty crazy and it’s crazy that you managed to get them, especially on the earlier round. Usually they would invest probably a bit later, like pre IPO slash public companies. Can you, can you talk, and also they’re quite secretive, or at least they don’t, not that, that visible. Can you talk a bit about that?

How, how you got in contact with them? How was it? How was it like, how, how was the discussion? What do you think about them? 

Dominik Schumacher: Yeah, I, I mean, I totally agree to your analysis the quality of that fund and also Frasier, I mean, they’ve, they’re around since the 90s. What amazing experiences within this, these funds this is crazy.

And, Yeah, again, it is also here constantly talking, being there, interacting with people. And I was, having several meetings with some of the folks from these funds. And then, at some point they started the diligence and in the end, It’s always the quality of the science that gets the attention of these funds.

Ah. So, yeah. 

Philip Hemme: And they didn’t want to lead the landlord. That’s the, 

Dominik Schumacher: we, we we have with NexTag and a qt. Fantastic. Yeah. Hunt is to lead. So Yeah, that’s 

Philip Hemme: good. 

[00:48:17] Vision for Tubulis

Philip Hemme: Maybe on the, yeah, that’s maybe on the, on the, to finish on tubes on the, more on the vision of the company from, from what I’ve heard as well, you are.

really, you really want to build it in the, into like large biotech versus optimized for, for exits, et cetera. I mean, obviously it depends on the option, but can you share a bit more on the, on the vision and, and what it means in terms of decision you had to take? Yeah. 

Dominik Schumacher: So we are super, super excited about the platform and we want to, be a global leader in ADCs, and with the positioning that we have right now, I think, we are on our way and on top of that, we want to be pushing the boundaries of this modules, pushing, innovating heavily.

That’s why we invest so, quite, quite a bit into our discovery work and to our platform and to new things. And we, we do it because. We are actually quite convinced that with our, due to the technology platform that we have, we are one of the only ones that can do it in that way. And that’s what, what we want to be seen.

Can you 

Philip Hemme: share a bit about this on like, on, I think it goes, there’s some parallels to you staying CEO or whatever, CEO or not, but like on staying independent versus exiting and kind of what’s the best for patient. I feel like, at least, let’s say, a bit for my personal analysis, like, of course you can bring drugs to patients with big pharma, and in a lot of cases it works well, and there’s an amazing expertise there, but in general, I would say, being more independent, longer, you can create more value, even patient value, financial value, but also patient value.

Do you agree with it? 

Dominik Schumacher: I think it again always depends. It depends on the individual situation. Turbulence is super strong independently. We have, just with this financing round, we have, I mean, we have a lot of power to build this company, further with this company. We have, a super hot area that we are playing in right now.

So, we can be super fast. We can be extremely fast. And we can take decisions extremely fast. And I think this is of great value for patients. And we understand our science best and we can play our platform in the best way to continue to deliver innovation. And I think this is, this is why I’m really focusing on building this company, but this doesn’t need to be the case for everyone. And always there’s something that I think it really depends. It depends. 

Philip Hemme: Okay. And I guess you will, I mean, in any way, I mean, you always use this, but I don’t believe it fully, but you always hear that the best way to get a big exit is to build a company and the value for patients, which is true in some way, whether in whatever business, even in biotech and whatever business, if you have amazing business metrics, whatever the industry is a metric, you get a better exit.

But I still feel, and especially also I had some experience with exiting the first company, that there is some strategic and some decision that lead more to independent company or more optimized for exiting, and yeah, I 

Dominik Schumacher: mean, I guess you agree, Jos? Yes, of course, of course. And, for me, it’s always the, the focus needs to be what is best for the company and what is best for me.

Being able to build this company, keep opportunities, keep optionalities. That’s my role. That’s my, that’s why I am the hired as a CEO to create. 

Philip Hemme: And I was about to say, it depends also a lot on the options and and the opportunities you have. Yeah, that’s good. 

[00:52:59] ADC space is hot

Philip Hemme: Maybe to switch a bit more on the industry topics on like, on the top of, of of tubulus, I mean, on, ADCs, like a few things that I find, I find very interesting.

I mean, we mentioned kind of the gen lab acquisition. Interesting to see that it’s a kind of the first, we are like billion dollar biotech acquisition from a biotech company at this European biotech buying another biotech. It was, it was I think sun, it was, West coast based. I think they were mostly West coast based, but it’s interesting to see.

But that’s, yeah. And what’s also interesting, or maybe you can comment on this recently. I saw that there was some like less good news on the ADC front. I mean, I saw that like BMS walked away from a deal with ASI. I think it was a massive deal. It was 650 million upfront only three years ago. And they walked away.

And then there was this like massive Daishi sent you a deal with Merck, the U. S. Merck, like 4 billion up front. And then, I don’t know how many, what is it, 18 billion dollar milestone October 2023. But they got a massive like FDA rejection just recently. Can you comment a bit on this? On like, what’s your feeling?

Yeah, where, whatever, where is it? Yeah, what’s your feeling about these, these news, how you, how you read them, like? 

Dominik Schumacher: Yeah. I mean, of course, when it comes to BMS and eyesight, there’s probably a lot of things that we don’t know about it. In the end, it’s always challenging, to develop drugs and independent.

And sometimes it’s not the drug that is, challenging, but it’s different situations that are challenging. So I don’t, I don’t think this is a general, this creates a general view on ADCs or has an impact on ADCs. And also when, I mean, Daichi is Daichi Senkyo is, as the last guy said, Anita is in the field, they have, a really powerful platform, the really powerful, NDCs, but also for them, it’s sometimes challenging to, and I, I don’t know the details there, but I think it’s, it’s challenging.

And they will solve it. And they will solve, pretty sure. A few billions to solve it, I guess. 

Philip Hemme: That’s, that’s, I mean, they, they kind of invented some of them. They were the first 

Dominik Schumacher: ones to topize the maze of one and a bit, I guess. 

Philip Hemme: Yeah. Can you talk more about the history of ADCs? Like, because what’s one surprising thing is, is, is, It’s not the only, but it’s one of the only really biotech funded or bio like technologies that is actually leading from Asia, coming from Asia, Japan and China, but mostly Japan.

I mean, you have IPS cells as well, but in general, there’s a lot more from the U. S. or Europe. 

Dominik Schumacher: And also for ADCs. A wave of ADCs have been created. Oh, not created, but a lot of pioneering work has been done in the U. S. Ciengenetics. Ciengenetics. They have, nobody else before, to my knowledge, but nobody else before Cgen has been doing manufacturing for.

ADCs. Okay. So they have basically showed us how it can be done. And then we, of course, it’s like, pharma companies, there was a first wave immunogen is, we had, They weren’t bossed on the weapon. They were, they were not acquired, but They, they had so many ADCs in the program. They had, there was so much rich science coming from them.

And of course, with LHR being approved, this was a fantastic success for that company and now, got acquired acquired. But, a lot of pioneer work came also here from the U. S. Because 

Philip Hemme: I heard, I don’t remember the details, but I heard a story that was in, that was some Japanese, like, in the suburbs of Tokyo, scientist, and it was, he was working with IDCs, like, when no one, no one at all was touching it, and he was not even recognized.

I don’t remember who it was, but I don’t know that story. So if you find that again, that’s interesting because I think he was like really forgotten and like no one cared and then and he was working almost solo on it and for a decade or so and then And now more recognition. I will, I will try to find it.

[00:58:03] Chinese biotech

Philip Hemme: And that’s the other interesting thing as well. China seems to be really big on ADCs as well, at least like buy and take. I think they did two or three deals with Chinese ADC players. Can you talk about this a bit? Like, Oh, like how? Yeah. I don’t know how. Is it true, how do you have also, I guess you have some interactions, do you see it, how do you see that?

There’s a lot happening in China. 

Dominik Schumacher: There’s a lot of ADC development happening in China. And the quality is good. Yeah. The quality is really good. Okay. Of everything. I like that. Yeah. I mean, it’s a competition that we look at seriously and take seriously. 

Philip Hemme: That’s that’s good because I mean, in Chinese biotech, I mean, first, I mean, things are going really fast.

It’s crazy. I’m looking at it also from a, My wife is Chinese, so I’m kind of exposed a bit, and she works in biotech as well. So we have some discussions, some daily discussions about it. But what’s crazy is that, let’s say 10 years ago, it was like not much or very little in Chinese biotech. That’s true.

Like generics are big. And some like providers on the CRO, they’re already pretty big. But on real biotech, and now it’s crazy. Like in the last, let’s say last five years, it’s crazy. I saw you in the stats. I think 2023 there was more money raised in China alone, not even Asia, China alone, than all Europe combined in biotech.

Dominik Schumacher: I don’t know that number, but it doesn’t surprise me. Crazy. And I think what also changed is, When it comes to clinical development, I mean, China is super fast and clinical because they have these big centers and to recruit patients is super fast, but the And the big challenge there has always been that the history, the treatment history of the patients has been completely different compared to the ones that you see in Europe or in the US.

So the patients just react completely different to your drug. So the translatability of data from one area to the other, it was just super tough. Chinese companies, they do their trials in the US as well. They start from day one and do it in the us and that’s, that’s definitely different. 

Philip Hemme: Reminds me of, I don’t remember the name of the ASCO result was, I think Chinese company, Chinese run trial, but they showed superior result to Keytruda in, in one indication.

But it was only Chinese data or Chinese patient data. And then huge question of, yeah, I guess exactly what you mentioned of like. Will FDA accept this data or recognize them? But it’s also not surprising, I mean, same as a European biotech, if you want to access, if you want FDA approval, you need to run a trial in the FDA, I mean, in the U.

S. 

Dominik Schumacher: Yeah, it makes sense. Even there it makes sense. But, you know, if you, the European patients and the U. S. patients, very often, Treated super similarly similar. And of course if you have, if you do a trial in a patient that has been exposed to various previous treatment lines exposed to toxicity and the like, then it meant environment as well, I guess then the environment and then it’s just behaving in a certain sense to, to your drugs.

For example, if you have a drug that makes neuropathy. And the previous, the patient already had three drugs that make neuropathy, then it was much easier and faster to get neuropathy again. But if the patient did not get any drug that was causing neuropathy, then it’s the first time and the body can actually cope quite a bit until then you really have severe neuropathy.

And that is the kind of differences that really make it hard to really translate them. I 

Philip Hemme: can imagine biomarkers also have massive difference in terms of Depending on the biomarker, yeah. Yeah, biomarker and the biology, I mean, and even the U. S., I mean, it’s still a, what is it, 60 percent Caucasian population thing in the U.S. And I guess in Europe, whatever, 80, 90%. I guess there’s some more common genetics than with the Asian population, just a reaction to drugs as well. All right, 

[01:02:53] Luck vs success

Philip Hemme: so, maybe a last, last topic, which you mentioned a bit of like, okay, we are in ADC. Basically, the topic is about luck and timing, and you mentioned it a bit with ADC, I’m wondering how, like,

like how, or like, yeah, I mean, how, how luck plays a role in your, in your whole like career and was a curious story and how do you, how do you approach it? How do you, how do you see it? I 

Dominik Schumacher: mean, in the end, luck always helps like in the sense of. We’re doing it at the right time, but for one example, but we also made the decision to do it now.

So, it’s not pure luck, right? Yeah, yeah. Because, I mean, and I totally understand what you read, but, 

Philip Hemme: I don’t mean it in a degrading way. No, no, no. I don’t mean it as a hundred percent luck. Actually, I mean You, but you need a meeting and how much luck you need it, you 

Dominik Schumacher: need a little bit of luck. But at the same time, and this is always what, this is a good thing about the human, you always remember the positive and the luck.

This the situations where you’ve been lucky, but there has been also, of course. I cannot tell you how many doors have been closed for us. And then you just need to say, okay, but there will be a much better door opening very soon. And so I continue and I go on. 

Philip Hemme: Because I mean, yeah, I like that. It’s funny what you said that you wouldn’t remember.

Like, I feel like we were definitely more lucky situation than unlucky, but I feel like, especially at this, let’s say founder and CEO level. We tend to remember much more what we have done, what was in our control than what was random slash luck component. How do you like, how do you, how do you 

Dominik Schumacher: approach that?

I try to reflect and try to analyze, analyze situations, be rational about things. And? And then you can have a rational view on it. You 

Philip Hemme: sound pretty, like, pretty handle and pretty, like, very aware of it. I like very, yeah, I don’t know if aware is the best word, but very rational about it and, and reflecting on it.

I try. It was the same discussion. You cannot be perfect, try, try. No, I mean, because I think that’s one factor as well, whether, I mean, again, not, not in a degrading way at all, but when I, when I looked at, at your story and when I looked at tubeless. There is definitely a factor of like being in the right space in the right time.

Of course, I mean, what did Einstein said? Whatever. Luck smiles only to the opportunist or whatever you need to, to take the decision and to provoke luck as well or be there when there’s luck that shows. But still, I mean, that the space is so hot is basically kind of outside your control or like you were there and your PhD already.

I don’t know why you went into ADCs. If that’s, I mean, you were basically unlucky at the beginning that no one wanted to do it and then they lucky in. Very hard to isolate how much difference it would have done. But for sure, for example, on the fundraising, I mean, would have been less thought you you have probably a factor of whatever two, two, three, two, three, four X difference or five X.

Dominik Schumacher: Yeah. Could be. And I’ve been, we had one, when we did the series B finance, we did it in the right timing because we knew before, but indeed now I can say it was the right timing. Because just after us closing that the finance markets was that so just two months later, starting kicking off the finance 

Philip Hemme: in the 2022 could have an old one. Yeah, that’s a lot of, yeah, yeah, sometimes, I mean, there’s definitely, there’s definitely like, yeah, involved, and I guess, I mean, the whole discussion, there are some moments where you say also like, yeah, some like, but you, you’re also very good at, for working at some, yeah.

Overall, I think it, it, it wraps up even what you said of like, being in a biotech family. I mean, this is definitely outside your control, but you can also, also, what you make out of it. And how you not profit from it, but how you, whatever, absorb it. Yeah. It’s also everything connected somehow. I think it, it, it wraps up, it’s good.

We, we, we started with something connected to like, we, we finished with something for like yeah. Amazing. Congrats with, with everything. I continue, I mean, continue the whole adventure. That’s a, that’s amazing. 

Dominik Schumacher: Thank you so much. It was, it was fantastic. 

Philip Hemme: Thank you.

Thanks for listening to the end. I’m impressed by Dominic’s stories and how much we have in common as a bio founders. I’m also impressed by the quality of the platform and the level of ambition. If you also enjoyed this episode, please hit the like, follow or review button. Any of these actions would help so much.

I would be also curious to hear what you think. So if you could leave a comment on any platform you are below or should be an email at philip at flots. bio. All right, catch you in the next episode.

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