Fresh after leading Calliditas Therapeutics through a $1.1B acquisition, Renee Aguiar-Lucander takes us through her new CEO role at Hansa Biopharma 🇸🇪.

We learn how Hansa is commercialising Idefirix, its lead product for improving outcomes in kidney transplantation. We also cover the hot area of immunology, the behind-the-scenes story behind Calliditas’ takeover and the complex world of biotech financing.

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Launching a biotech startup? Grab your Biotech Starter Kit through Merck’s New Lab Starter Program and get the tools and support you need from day one: https://bit.ly/biotech-starter-kit

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⭐️ ABOUT THE SPEAKER

Renee Aguiar-Lucander became the CEO of Hansa Biopharma in April 2025 after a seven-year tenure as CEO of Calliditas Therapeutics, which Asahi Kasei Corporation acquired in September 2024. Before her CEO roles, she also had a long career in healthcare investments with senior roles in funds including Omega Fund Management and 3i Group.

🔗 LINKS MENTIONED

• Hansa Biopharma’s Interim Report Q1 April 2025: https://www.hansabiopharma.com/files/Main/1219/4138498/20250423-hnsa–q1-2025-quarterly-report-eng.pdf
• The acquisition announcement of Calliditas Therapeutics by Asahi Kasei: https://asahi-kasei.eu/acquire-calliditas-therapeutics-ab/
• Hansa Biopharma’s website: https://www.hansabiopharma.com/
• Marc de Garidel, Abivax | How to make two Billion-dollar exits (“smoothly”) | E09: https://flot.bio/episode/marc-de-garidel-abivax-exit/
• Christophe Bourdon, LEO Pharma 🇩🇰 | Biopharma Turnaround | E31: https://flot.bio/episode/christophe-bourdon-leo-pharma-biopharma/

Transcript

[00:00:00] Intro

Philip Hemme: I think immunology, inflammation or I eye is very hot at the Netherland. 

Renee Aguiar-Lucander: It’s particularly when you’re in the US and I, I love this because you can recognize it so quickly. There are quite a lot of companies that have very limited data and they’re very loud 

Philip Hemme: K solutions. Amazing success story. 

Renee Aguiar-Lucander: The company was growing, we’re getting close to profitability.

Companies have been following us for a while, came back and wanted to talk. Yeah, it’s actually very fun to kind of also have some networks with women. You know, we can moan and gro in about slightly different things. So it’s it’s fun. It shouldn’t be afraid of asking questions or asking for advice. It can be much more efficient.

Philip Hemme: Have to in new episode. I’m your host, Philip, and on this show I’m entering the best Europeans in biotech to help you grow. One of the best exits in recent European biotech times is CITAs. The Swedish biotech was acquired for $1.1 billion and was run by Rene. She has no joint Hanza Aseo. So I caught up with her while we were both in Boston.

I heard many great things about her, but it was actually the first time we met offline. We talked about her joining Hanza Biopharma, which has a product approved in immunology. We also talked about the behind the scenes of the exit of CITAs and how to transition from finance to biotech executive. So here’s my conversation with Renee, and please hit the like and follow button if you’re enjoying it.

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Alright, welcome to your show, Renee. Thank you. 

[00:02:18] Joining Hansa Biopharma

Philip Hemme: I wanna start with you recently joining Hanza Biopharma. Just wondering, yeah. How are things going so far? 

Renee Aguiar-Lucander: I think that they’re going pretty well, honestly. Yes. I’m happy with the progress that we’ve made since I joined, which is now coming up to almost two months.

Philip Hemme: Yeah. And what, what led you to this decision? Right. What you do decision to drive. 

Renee Aguiar-Lucander: So I, handouts always kind of been, you know, been kind of in the, in the area or where, you know, in and around and about where I’ve been operating previously. It’s in the kind of kidney space. One other kind of things is in the kidney space and this is transplantation.

But I think the platform that they have, the signs that actually they’ve developed is really fascinating. I think it’s, and it’s also obviously it’s gone through. You know, an approval and it’s actually being used obviously today in Europe on patients. And I think it has great opportunities to kind of be, you know, have an application in other areas as well.

So I think it’s, it’s a really exciting business that way. And 

Philip Hemme: I guess a bit of Swedish connection as well. There 

Renee Aguiar-Lucander: is a bit of a Swedish connection. 

[00:03:23] How Idefirix works

Philip Hemme: I, and then, so on the, you just mentioned you got the approval, so the product is Eif Firex or how you put Exactly. Eex, yeah. Conditional approval of 2020. In, in the eu?

Renee Aguiar-Lucander: In the eu, yeah. 

Philip Hemme: But not, not in the us exactly. 

Renee Aguiar-Lucander: Yes. No. So I think that the EMA was willing to kind of give the drug a conditional approval on the basis of a fairly small kind of two, three center kind of open label study. Okay. The us, the FDA was very clear about the fact that they wanted a control trial.

They wanted a control arm. And so that really led the company to run a kind of separate phase three really in the us. Okay. And that trial is reading out now in the second half of this year.

Philip Hemme: Can we just talk a bit about the science as well, because I think it’s a enzyme, IgG cleaving exactly. And there’s quite a few application, but can you go a bit in the, in the, in the science and the applications there? 

Renee Aguiar-Lucander: Sure. So, so this, this enzyme is, is extremely efficient at cleaving IgG and it cleaves it kind of in two ways.

So actually it completely kind of depletes IgG and you have like maybe like a 15 minute infusion. And after about, you know, within two to six hours you really have kind of depleted IgG down to less than 5%. So it’s very, very efficient. And it’s obviously been proven to also be very safe. This means that you can use it in this kind of way of desensitization.

So you have patients in two for, for example, two different areas. So one would be patients that are on dialysis, so they’ve lost their kidneys are on dialysis. And obviously we all know that transplantation is the best option for these patients to live a normal life. But because they have very high levels of kind of antibodies, the chances of them ever getting a match is extraordinarily small, very, very limited.

I. So these patients are on dialysis for extended periods of time, years and years and years, and often they will die on dialysis. So in this case, actually we can use this drug to kind of then reduce these antibody levels very, very significantly. And obviously it’s important that it happens quickly because obviously if you’re going to do it transplantation, you have an organ need to call in the patient you know, you can’t have the patient kind of, you know, waiting for weeks to kind of get to that point.

So it’s very, very well adapted to that. 

Philip Hemme: And so it’s. Kind of more temporary thing before the, the transplant or is it that ongoing after the, also after. 

Renee Aguiar-Lucander: No, so by, but the fact that it is cleves, all the existing IgG 

Philip Hemme: Yeah. 

Renee Aguiar-Lucander: Means that you kind of get down to these levels and then of course the B cells will, will now start producing again.

It takes quite a long time for that process to kinda reach any kind of significant levels. So you basically have a very, very low level of IGD for maybe, let’s say a week or so. Okay. Week to 10 days. And then it’ll start kind of, you know, it’ll start kinda rebounding, but that’s obviously enough for kind of the, the, what’s important is that you don’t have those, those kind of antibodies present when you actually do the transplant.

And in the first couple of, you know, days obviously, as you kind of follow that. And then as they come back and of, of course the, the. Physicians are aware of this, you can then manage that with existing kind of you know, existing kind of autoimmune suppression. 

[00:06:45] Commercialization and competition

Philip Hemme: Okay. So, okay. That was, so you’re talking about organ transplant, where I saw you have two other application.

One is to facilit gene therapy. Yeah. The other one is, is autoimmune disease. Let me, starting with the gene therapy, I guess it’s a similar application as in you, when the gene therapy happens, you want to deplete the level of IDD to make the gene therapy more. Successful or 

Renee Aguiar-Lucander: so these are, so it is very similar, but these are obviously the, the delivery kind of mechanism for a lot of gene therapies are a vectors.

Yeah. And again, sometimes because it’s, you know, these occur naturally, so you will have patients that have very high levels very high titers of kind of a vectors. So, and again, those patients really cannot be given gene therapy because the delivery vehicle is, you know, it’s like, it’s not possible.

So in this case, actually one 

Philip Hemme: third of the. Isn’t one third of the eligible patients, 

Renee Aguiar-Lucander: so it’ll vary in different indicate, but it’s quite high. 

Philip Hemme: It’s high. Okay. It is 

Renee Aguiar-Lucander: anywhere from kind of like, you know, 15% to, to kinda like up to 50%. So it, it is a range depending on kind of difference. Different drug products.

But this again is obviously as you can imagine for those companies or have been pursuing gene therapies. And so now have a commercial product. You know, not to be able to reach all of those patients that are eligible under their label. 

Philip Hemme: Yeah. 

Renee Aguiar-Lucander: So this is obviously something that the, the company entered into a agreement with Sarepta.

Yeah. And Sarepta is now running basically a proof of concept study doing and doing exactly this, looking at kind of depleting this kind of antibody levels down to very low levels. And then actually administrating their gene therapy, which is then in DMD patients to these patients and seeing will it then actually, will you, will you kinda, after that period of time, will you see this kind of expression in the muscle ti tissue exactly as you see with, you know, non, you know, patients who do not have these kind of high level of antibodies.

Philip Hemme: Just make you think that is in the news right now. That’s the best news. 

Renee Aguiar-Lucander: No, they have, they have had quite a lot of challenges. But this is obviously just a way that vehicle is being used by a lot of different gene therapy. So that’s really data that also will be be shared kind of this second half of this year.

Philip Hemme: Yeah. Okay. And finishing on the autoimmune disease, because that’s, I think that’s where you approval is a, 

Renee Aguiar-Lucander: so in autoimmune disease, the companies want two different kind of proof of concept studies. One in anti GBM which is, again, it’s an IgG mediad autoimmune disease. But this kind of really affects kidneys, the membranes goer kind of membranes, and also sometimes lung membranes.

And and also in gire syndrome. Yeah. Which is more of a neurological also rare disease. But actually that’s when you kind of have, your immune system is really attacking your nerves, so you get kind of muscle weakness, paralysis, et but both of those are rare diseases and they are IgG mediated and the company has run phase two proof of concept trials there showing that, you know, in these open trials that there was a significant difference between kind of standard of care and amyloid.

Okay.

Philip Hemme: Because you said the product was approved, but then I, I looked at the sales and it’s basically around whatever, 20 million in 2024. Yeah. Which seems not that high, but yeah, maybe just for, for conditional approval in Europe is also not that bad. I dunno. How do you. Look at it. 

Renee Aguiar-Lucander: So I think that there were quite a few challenges for the company in terms of launching in Europe.

So I think the first one was obviously it was approved really kind of at the beginning of COVID. 

Philip Hemme: Yeah. 

Renee Aguiar-Lucander: So these patients were, transplantation was not kind of the, you know, the kind of at the forefront of what physicians wanted to do at the time. 

Philip Hemme: Yeah. 

Renee Aguiar-Lucander: So I think that that was one of the issues. And then obviously reimbursement in Europe really takes about nine to 12 months per country to really kind of get that reimbursement in place.

So we know in Europe that it’s a slow start every time only with five. And you ha it’s, it is complicated. It is complicated. It takes time. But I do think that what we are, the, the second thing that was going on is obviously that there was no, there were no guidelines and in quite a few kind of the European countries, because these are, these are really kind of sensitive patients.

They are highly sensitized. But these are patients that physicians would be quite concerned about because they do have this kind of really high level of the kind of rejection potential. And so that there is, there really were no guidelines. So it’s really breaking new ground. This is a novel kind of treatment.

So I think that getting those, you know, kind of those guidelines in place was very important. And thirdly, the company, obviously, because it’s a conditional approval, EMA also required a confirmatory study. So EMA really wanted the company to run in multiple centers in Europe. A 50 patient trial. So obviously there has been none.

That trial was fully recruited in the beginning of this year. So obviously you’ve had 50 patients that have been transplanted, but they’ve been transplanted outside of the commercial setting. So it’s been really in a clinical trial. So we had about, the company had about maybe $15 million or so revenues last year.

Philip Hemme: Yep. 

Renee Aguiar-Lucander: But this per quarter of this year had about six and a half million True in revenue. So I think that it’s realistic to assume that there’s going to be, you know. Pretty reasonable growth in Europe this year and next year as you kind of have the confluence of no more clinical trial ongoing, you do have guidelines and a lot and lot more of the physicians are comfortable doing this transplantation and using Lyase ’cause they’ve also been in the clinical trial.

So you’re having a much broader usage base as well. 

Philip Hemme: And I guess you’re also bringing your commercial experience 

Renee Aguiar-Lucander: right? 

Philip Hemme: To the picture? 

Renee Aguiar-Lucander: Yes. Yeah. So we’re now be brought in some people as well with kind of, you know, very strong commercial backgrounds. So obviously we’re looking at, you know, is there something that we can do to kind of, to enhance this, to kind of, you know, accelerate growth in Europe, are there some investments that are necessary or some reallocation?

So yes, we are looking at that in terms of what we can do from a commercial project in this. 

Philip Hemme: I was curious also on the, especially on the immune side, I think some of your competitors, I don’t know exactly which indication, but at least from my understanding. Argen was their drug, which is yeah, highly, highly successful.

Highly 

Renee Aguiar-Lucander: successful. 

Philip Hemme: I think UCB has a very, like a similar indication also in, in Thein space. Yeah. Just curious how you, I mean, it’s not the same mechanism action, but I, I guess some of the application, but some of the indication could be the same. How do you like differentiate from them? 

Renee Aguiar-Lucander: Yeah. 

Philip Hemme: If you go in, in some, yeah.

These area, which are frontal, yeah. 

Renee Aguiar-Lucander: So I think for a lot of those kind of drugs, they’re the differences that they’re, it’s kind of a. A time, it takes time to actually kind of, you know, reduce the IgG levels. So it’s not kind of an immediate effect. And also they don’t necessarily reduce them that far down.

So it also, you don’t kind of get to those levels kind of over time necessarily. So I think this drug, in terms of differentiation, I think it really is that you have this very rapid onset. A very kind of deep reduction really, of IgG. And so I think it has been looked at in both of these kind of cases like GBS and anti GBM when the immune system kind of goes haywire and, and kind of you have these almost shock to the system.

The outcome obviously is very much dependent on how quickly can you actually kind of get this under control. How rapidly can you kind of, you know. Limit this kind of IgG storm, if you wanna call it that. And this is why, for example, in anti GBM if you look at kind standard of care, if you look at historical outcomes you could see that maybe after six months from diagnosis, about 18% of those patients still kind of have a, you know, or dialysis independence still have a functioning kidney.

Philip Hemme: Yeah. 

Renee Aguiar-Lucander: So in that kind of open-label trial that was done in anti GBM with Lyase that. Kind of same number was about 67%. So it is about kind of trying to kind of, you know, you preserve the organ because you don’t have this extended exposure of, of kind of this autoimmune attack. So obviously it is more for kind of, I would call acute or flare type kind of a situation.

What I think a lot of the other drugs are much more kind of a, it’s almost like a maintenance type chronic 

Philip Hemme: to Right, 

Renee Aguiar-Lucander: exactly. That I think is kind of the simplest way of, of differentiating it. 

Philip Hemme: Alright. So and from, so I guess you’re going for indications where it’s Yeah. More severe autoimmune. Yeah. Versus, okay.

[00:15:24] Navigating biotech finances

Philip Hemme: The access and going, or one of the last aspect more on the finance side. Yeah, I saw that in the market cap in dollars is around whatever, a hundred, at least in June was $170 million. Pay or take. It’s which. I guess right now with the lower market caps, it’s still still very decent. But what I saw is that your cash level was pretty low, actually.

Like in Yeah, I think QQ one you had whatever, 25 or $26 million. Exactly. Yeah. How, how do you look at this? Like, I guess, 

Renee Aguiar-Lucander: yes, that was clearly one of the things that was kind of brought in to try to address. It’s a pretty obvious problem. And I think really the company had, they, the company took a loan in 2022.

Philip Hemme: Okay. 

Renee Aguiar-Lucander: Which is probably a little bit early to kind of do that, but I mean, they did. And so, so there is a kind of combination of, of, you know, having to renegotiate the loan burden for the company as well as obviously bring in kind of you know, additional. Equity capital. 

Philip Hemme: Okay. 

Renee Aguiar-Lucander: So that is something that obviously, you know, we have actually been working on from the day that I joined.

Okay. And and actually we, we have we’ve actually kinda launched a a transaction this morning. I mean, this, this evening, I would say in Europe to actually kind of, we have, we have reached some heads of terms with the lender and also kind of also, you know, taking bringing in some additional capital into the company.

Philip Hemme: How, how, how much are we talking about? 

Renee Aguiar-Lucander: Is it discussed? So this is ongoing at the moment, right? It hasn’t, it hasn’t closed yet, but we, we’ve just said that we’re, we’re launching that. Okay. Okay. 

Philip Hemme: Yeah. Okay. That makes sense. And I guess with your experience of, you know, as well, probably helps Sure.

Calling them as well to see, 

Renee Aguiar-Lucander: I mean, I think this is obviously one of the benefits in terms of having been through some of these things before is that I have a fairly broad. Network, at least kind of relationships with investors. And so obviously the, the, the hope and the plan here is that we can actually kind of restructure some of the debt, make, give the company, you know, kinda a really kind of significant time of kind of breathing room.

Yes. To both do. To, to read out a lot of the catalysts that are coming. We have three kind of big kind of data readouts, the second half but also then really kind of, you know, use this time to also do other kind of corporate deals, be that kind of, maybe other gene therapy deals or outsourcing, you know, indications or geographies, partnerships.

So I think that that, you know, it’ll give the company an ability to kinda, you know, have, you know, get, get onto a much more sustainable footing from a kind of capital perspective. 

Philip Hemme: And I guess it’s much better to have whatever. 24 months of one way versus six months 

Renee Aguiar-Lucander: Absolutely. In 

Philip Hemme: recurring patents.

Renee Aguiar-Lucander: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yes. That makes everybody feel a lot better. 

Philip Hemme: One, one thing that I saw in your investor list, which I struck me, was that Red Mile had somewhere around 20% of the company. Right. And a red, my obvious is very high level west surfing. There are famous for having done BioNTech, but Yeah.

But a lot of others. 

Renee Aguiar-Lucander: Yeah. 

Philip Hemme: Were they already there before you joined? Yes. Yes. Okay. Yes, 

Renee Aguiar-Lucander: they’ve been with a company. And 

Philip Hemme: what’s the story of them investing in the company? Like what’s the backbone? 

Renee Aguiar-Lucander: So, I mean, they actually invested in the business, I think, you know, quite some time ago. Okay. And I, I know that obviously they have been following this in terms of gene therapy, for example.

They’re very active and kind of investing generally in that area. And I think they’re very excited about the kind of potential for this drug, the way that it can be used. ’cause I think it’s, again, I think it would be. Hard to believe that if you actually have a gene therapy franchise that you would not want to get to all of the patients that are eligible under, under that kind of scheme.

So, so I think if we can show this you know, which we’re hoping to do second half of this year, we’re also working with GenOn with a different vector, different tissue. 

Philip Hemme: Yeah. 

Renee Aguiar-Lucander: So I think actually if we can show that this actually can be used kind of in different, you know, irrespective vectors and tissues, I think this is an extremely exciting, opportunity. 

Philip Hemme: Yeah, because, okay, because once you prove it, I guess with one or two vectors and you prove that it works, I guess then you can expand to Exactly. A lot of other gene therapies. Exactly. Yeah. Okay. 

[00:19:51] Lessons from Calliditas’ exit

Philip Hemme: So like you mentioned your experience, so I want to transition with to, to cita services amazing success story.

Was there, I think $1.1 billion exit to, to, as a e. I saw that. So you know what this a growth fund joints Yeah. System a bit before the exit. And you have been there, I think for what, seven, eight years? I seven years? Yeah. Yeah. I’m curious of like Yeah, the whole story from, from you joining and then what, like, some of my son and what was like behind or outside the press release.

Oh. 

Renee Aguiar-Lucander: So, yeah, I mean, it, it, it is, it is a kind of a, it is a great story I think because so obviously when I joined, it was a very small company. Nine people, you know, drive a business in something that looked more like an apartment than an office in, in stock. But the company had been working for a long time in kind of this rare kidney disease called IGA nephropathy.

They were the only company, really, kind of pharma company that run like a, you know, proper kind of randomized control study, phase two B, large study, 150 patients as well. Very good results. But there had, there was this issue with, again, like what was the regulatory pathway going forward? Yeah. Because the traditional kind of metrics that the kind of cardiorenal division would require, you know, dabbling of creatinine instead, it’s like it, it would just take, it would just, it wasn’t possible really to kind of carry out in a rare disease.

So the company, me working with, you know, US universities with the regulators, they had, you know, they published their, their, their study and did a lot of, they did a meta-analysis of all kind of intervention into kind of IGA nephropathy patients, and showed that there was this kind of correlation between kind of reduction of proteinuria and in the actual kind of longer term outcomes on EGFR in the kidney.

Yeah. And they’d been having these conversations with the FDA for quite a long time and just kinda before then. So in 2017, FDA actually. Kind of said, okay, we have all of this material, all the publications, all the data, meta-analysis, you know, we are going to allow you to actually run your phase three pivotal study with a potential of getting an accelerated approval on this novel endpoint.

Which obviously great, but the company was kinda like, oh my God, what are we gonna do? 

Philip Hemme: Needs to 

Renee Aguiar-Lucander: run 

Philip Hemme: it as well. 

Renee Aguiar-Lucander: Yes. I mean, you need, you need experienced people to run a global phase three. So we ran a global phase three on our own. Let’s see. But I was 150 centers all over the world. We don’t had to bring together a team really with experience to run global phase three trials, which obviously means you have to go to big pharma and try and convince them that they should come to much, much, much smaller business.

But we did that successfully. And then strategy wise, you know, I think I decided very early on that we could, we could kind of commercialize this ourselves in the us. It was a rare disease. Nothing had ever been approved. And so really, and I think the company had excellent relationships with KOLs and so we did quite a lot of work on this and figured that, you know, we should, we should be able to kind of do this ourselves.

Philip Hemme: How did you finance the phase? What kind of announce? Yeah, 

Renee Aguiar-Lucander: so actually the, the phase three, what we did is we raised we went public in Sweden. And so we raised about about $70 million. 

Philip Hemme: Yeah. 

Renee Aguiar-Lucander: To actually then fund the phase three trial. Then actually we out licensed the drug to both China, Japan and Europe.

So that gave us additional kind of upfronts. 

Philip Hemme: Yeah. That’s where it stack up 

Renee Aguiar-Lucander: 15, 20 million. Exactly. That came in. Exactly. So that kind of helped in terms of the funding. And then in 2020 we we also took the company public in the US and raised about $90 million. So that was a way to actually then fund more of the commercial, pre-commercial and commercial effort.

Philip Hemme: Okay. And then, okay. And then once you got the FDA approval, I mean, it went pretty quickly to the exit. Was was I, as I, yeah, 

Renee Aguiar-Lucander: so basically the, the, the, the trial was pretty much run. We started in 2018, 

Philip Hemme: yes. 

Renee Aguiar-Lucander: With a phase three. Took only about a year to recruit, so that was very, very good. So we read out the data, we kind of got the data at the end of 2020.

Philip Hemme: Yeah. 

Renee Aguiar-Lucander: And then so we got the kind of conditional or accelerated approval in the US at the end, like December, 2021. 

Philip Hemme: Yeah. 

Renee Aguiar-Lucander: And that meant that we could launch kind of into the market in 2022. This so we launched in 2022 and 23 was the kind of first full commercial year that we had. And at that point in time the drug was called Torp and it sold for about just over a hundred million dollars in it.

It’s quite 

Philip Hemme: a lot for first year. It is, 

Renee Aguiar-Lucander: yeah. And we were extremely happy with that and it really had a lot of momentum at that time. We’re seeing very good growth. And we also kind of knew that we were getting to the, the holy grail of actually being kind of operationally profitable as a biotech company, which is, you know, which is an achievement.

Philip Hemme: Especially Europe. There’s not that many. 

Renee Aguiar-Lucander: Exactly. Which we kind of achieved, you know, in 2024. So but I think it was based on the fact that, you know, we got a full, we, we got a full approval with a broader label from the kind of confirmatory study that we had also done read out. So in 2024, really, we had a full approval, you know, a very good label.

You know, we were obviously seeing a lot of momentum. The company was growing, we’re getting close to kind of profitability. So I think it was on that basis that. Companies had been following us for a while you know, came back and wanted, came back and wanted to talk. 

Philip Hemme: Okay. And I, I guess you had a, I don’t know how, how much it’s disclosed or in your, in your FCC filing of the deal was structured.

I guess some other people you had some discussion with other people and increasing the days as well. Know how much you can. Disclose or what was disclosed. 

Renee Aguiar-Lucander: Yes. I mean, but I think it’s a, it’s a fairly typical kind of situation, obviously. So the, the, I mean, a psych, I had been following us for a while, so we had been, we met them for.

Probably the first time we met them was probably two years earlier. Okay. When we kind of just, you know, were talking. And also they have a, because saw he had a, has a, has a business in the US that’s also in the kidney space, but in the kind of transplantation with drugs. So not adjacent, but not, you know, but still.

And so I think they were obviously looking at other renal companies, et cetera. So we, we had kind, we knew each other and we’d been talking for a while. But nothing kind of, you know, it was more like we met at conferences, we said, hello, how are things going? 

Philip Hemme: And as a beer, I guess. No. 

Renee Aguiar-Lucander: As 

Philip Hemme: it’s the same company actually know as a, a beer as well?

No, it’s a no, it’s a different one. It’s a different Was a big group. 

Renee Aguiar-Lucander: It is a conglomerate. Yeah. It’s definitely conglomerate, but it’s not, it’s a different company. It’s the same company. No, same. It’s the same name, but it’s not that company. Yeah, no. And so they have like home and materials as well as healthcare.

Okay. Yeah. So those are the three kind of pillars of, of their own business. But then I think, as I said, I think the momentum of what was going on, I think, so they became much more engaged. And then I think the board felt like, because we were getting, you know, serious interest that they wanted to go out and do a market check.

So we did kind of contact you know a limited number of other parties that we thought could be kind of interested. And that kind of then drove, you know, a kind of a competitive process going forward. 

[00:27:11] Sofinnova and European crossover funds

Philip Hemme: So how, I’m curious also how, again, I don’t know how much you can or how much was disclosed, but how, how competitive was it?

And I’m asking because we had actually another, so Nova company with Mark de Garo on the show. Yeah. And we went quite deep into the, the deal. And what was fascinating was that, yeah, he talked about how it happened and how like. He was supposed to get a bid by Friday night wherever, 8:00 PM Eastern time, and he got it like at 6 55 and the deal increased is a crazy and crazy story.

I, I’m wondering for you, like if there’s some similar, let’s say stories that happened. 

Renee Aguiar-Lucander: I, so I think we didn’t have, I mean, I would say that it was kind of, it’s a, it was a well organized process and we did have kind of like people kind of, you know, obviously. Coming in and, and bidding, et cetera. But I think that in this case, because I think as I knew us very well, ’cause they had been following us for quite a long time.

And I think they’d all, you know, they’d kind of done quite a lot of diligence kind of from the outside in, in terms of kind of, they, you know, they’d done quite a lot of work beforehand. And what happens tends to happen is that those people can move quite a lot quicker than anybody else. Who is more, who’s newer to the, you know, to the story I.

So but I do think obviously that it’s, it’s always kind of an interesting, it’s always an interesting process. But, and it’s, I mean, the good thing is obviously you have bankers between you and, and the other party. And so, you know, there, it helps, it helps in terms of how you frame certain things and how you, you know, how you kind of talk about.

What’s really going on? So I think you obviously, I mean, it’s, it’s always kind of, it’s always a matter of kind of like, you never lie. 

Philip Hemme: Yeah. 

Renee Aguiar-Lucander: It’s more a matter of what information do you share and what information do you not share. So which I think is important, right? You don’t wanna, you don’t, you know, you, you have to be kind of professional and, and, and kind of, you know, keep things obviously kind of on you, you can’t kinda be carried away and start making things up.

Philip Hemme: Yeah. 

Renee Aguiar-Lucander: But I do think there’s always this kind of issue of like, you know, what you leave out rather than what you or what you say 

Philip Hemme: makes me smile because I, yeah. I look quite close in, into the deal of morphos with, with Novartis. Yeah. And yeah, I mean the value was very high, but afterward was there was a, a write, a write down or we call it Yeah, it was yeah.

I mean I cannot tell too much, but yeah. Was, makes me smile. Okay, cool. And it’s, and I mean, one, one thing also that I find very interesting with Lukas, obviously it’s a, at least European headquartered story, which I mean, deals above a billion dollars exits from, from European companies is Yeah. Quite, quite rare.

I mean, yeah, there’s been a few, but I think not much more than a dozen, I would say. Yeah. Which what’s also really interesting is that I also, from the, at least from the Nova, I think was. I mean, they had recent, they raised their first growth from the crossover funds and seems like it’s quite a good example as well of like a European crossover fund investing, helping a European company.

Yeah. Make it to commercial and then with a good exit as well. Like how, how do you, like, how do you look at the role of these like kind of crossover funds, especially the tech? So if you know about European crossover funds Yeah. Coming in like. 

Renee Aguiar-Lucander: So I think it’s interesting to some extent, ’cause obviously this was you know, in the US you have quite a few Yes, yeah.

Of these funds. And they had kind historically I think, been very successful. Europe had lagged a bit in terms of kind of funds being raised that were big enough to really kind of take sizable ticket. Just but then I think you ended up in this situation where, you know, you had COVID and all of these funds were kind of raised, and then you had actually a little bit of a permafrost for a period of time, kind of in the, in the public markets.

Which I think is quite challenging. So I think in this case we really had, we, we knew that we were going to obviously go into the US and, and do kind of a US listing because we were commercializing in the US We had a lot of people in the us. I mean, it was really important from an operational perspective to actually have a listing, have a stock price that people don’t have to ask.

Like, what’s the Swedish Corona? What’s this like? You, so it’s all kind of 

Philip Hemme: conflict. You put some conversion as well to prepare for this conversation. 

Renee Aguiar-Lucander: And so, so I think operation was very important to us to do that. Yeah. And I think we, it was very also good. I mean, we were, there’s, there’s so much regulation, obviously a lot of things when you are gonna commercialize a product, a medical product in the US and I think it was very helpful for them to know that we were listed, we had us lawyers crawling all over us all the time.

We had to kind of do a lot of, I mean, they, they know exactly what disclosures we have to do and et cetera. So, so I think it makes people feel much more comfortable as it sounds. So I think that was really helpful. Actually. But in this case, obviously it was important that we had US investors as well come into the cap table before we actually kind of listed in the US.

Okay. And so I think that actually having that kind of, a little bit of a mixture of some US and some kind of European growth funds to kind of support that I think was, was critical obviously to kind of having a successful IPO in the us.

Philip Hemme: I saw that, Hans, I think you’re considering the dual listing as well. I guess 

Renee Aguiar-Lucander: so. I think the company has been considering it for, I think actually that the, the company filed hoping anything to go at like even 2021. Okay. But then, you know, as you know, I, I wasn’t really there, so I don’t really know what happened, but I know that that’s the public information that’s out there.

It’s clearly that they did do that. I, I think that obviously since kind of the. Since, well, let’s say 22, 23, 20. This hasn’t been easy times for kind of the biotech market in general. And I think it’s also one of the things that, obviously we’ve had so many companies in the US that it was clear that there needed to be some kind of a you know, consolidation or, or, you know, you needed to reduce the number of kind of companies that were public in the us.

Because it wasn’t there, the capital wasn’t there to really kind of support all of them. ’cause some of them were also very early and would require huge amounts of money to kind of take them really through. So, so I think there’s been, I mean a lot of the portfolio has been, or a lot of the focus of investors have been on portfolio management and really selecting kind of which companies they can afford to support and, and I think obviously IPOs have not exactly been booming over the last several years, so, so I think, you know, yes there is.

I think again, that kind of. Operational rationale for kind of, if we are going to, if we get an approval and gonna commercialize in the us it would make sense to kind of, you know, have a US listing. But I think it’s very much depending on the macro movement and, and there, yeah. So I think at the moment it’s a little bit noisy out there.

I think it’s, you know, it’s a bit hard. 

Philip Hemme: Yeah. 

Renee Aguiar-Lucander: So we’ll see. We’ll see. You 

Philip Hemme: think one of the recent guests talked about natural selection? I think it’s a bit, oh, that 

Renee Aguiar-Lucander: sounds really. That sounds very harsh. Yes. 

Philip Hemme: But there is maybe a bit of that. I mean, yeah, he, he was mention even in, in Europe, he’s mentioned it, whatever, just before COVID and COVID, there’s just a lot of companies got financed.

Yeah. And that maybe, yeah. Should have less or not. And there’s a bit of a correction. I think it’s, 

Renee Aguiar-Lucander: and I think Europe also. I mean it, it’s a little bit of an imbalance. I think there’s actually quite a lot of capital for early stage. 

Philip Hemme: Yeah. 

Renee Aguiar-Lucander: So it’s not, I mean, I’m sure people will say it’s still hard to raise money.

Of course it’s always hard to raise money, but, but I think in, in on a relative basis, it’s, it’s much more capital. There is capital available for early stage. I think what, what Europe hasn’t had that much of, at least until recently, is how more of that kind of growth capital, that more kind like, you know, bigger checks that can kind of support you through.

Larger clinical trials or kind of potential commercialization, so in the US listing of all that? Yeah, so I think that obviously you’ll end up with a lot of kind of small companies in Europe and then I think it becomes quite hard for those companies to kinda break through and, and get to that kind of next stage of funding.

I think it is still very hard in Europe. 

Philip Hemme: That makes sense. Yeah. Makes, and the one thing I’m curious also is. Oh, always curious. But the, because in the NASDAQ is running the Swedish Stock Exchange, what is it called? Nasdaq? 

Renee Aguiar-Lucander: Yeah. OMX. Yeah. 

Philip Hemme: How, how much easier does it, does it become to then double list? Is there any like, or it’s, I’m not sure really about the brand.

I’m, 

Renee Aguiar-Lucander: I’m not sure because obviously it’s so kind of dominated by, you know, the corporate law in each place and the kind of the different kind of rules and restrictions. So, yeah. Not really. Well, I’m, I, I haven’t experienced it anyway. Let’s put it that way. 

Philip Hemme: One thing you mentioned was the with KZ test that you went like, or you’ve, from other years, like you focus quite a lot on the, on the US market also from the Yeah.

Reimbursement point of view, I guess it’s, yeah, there’s, there’s, there’s more. Yeah. Wondering how you, maybe if we, if we zoom out a bit on this, like, I mean, and several guests on the show mentioned this, that. Whatever, 70% of the market for their drug was in the US so they just focused on it. Even if they were European companies.

Yeah, we had recently Verona, basically uk. Yeah, headquartered, but they basically didn’t even try to launch Europe to just did US only, and it worked very well for them so far. Like how did you, I don’t know how Yeah, through your personal experience, but also the broader how, how did you think You look at this?

Yeah, yeah. You think I wanted to. 

Renee Aguiar-Lucander: So I think, so I spent 12 years obviously on the investment side, investing in life sciences spending most of the time obviously in Europe. And what you learn when you sit, you know, and, you know, I went to, had the opportunity and benefit to kind of really look at a lot of different companies during that time.

And you realize how hard it is really in Europe to commercialize if you, in particularly if you have one product that might be a rare product or smaller product. It really is quite difficult because you have to go through every single country and kind of negotiate a reimbursement prize. And obviously these agencies are central agencies, so it’s not just because you wanna have a negotiation, they may not be available.

Right. So, so they’re negotiating with someone else. So, so it’s, it’s, it’s a very kind of it’s a very slow process. It’s very difficult. And obviously because you have the kind of one payer system, it becomes also quite binary. It’s like, you know, I. Are you in? You know, are you gonna be, where are you not gonna be?

I mean, there’s, there’s no kind of, there’s no in between. And so I think it’s really 

Philip Hemme: so willingness to reimburses also, yeah. 8.08, in fact, eight 

Renee Aguiar-Lucander: point innovation is much lower. And so I think it, you know, it’s, it’s very difficult to see how you’re actually gonna recoup the investment that you need to make.

Because it’s not really like the salespeople per se, but it’s all of the administration and the filings and I mean, it’s like there’s a lot of kind of cost that comes with kind of having, you know, compliance and having things in all different languages, in all different kind. It’s very complicated and it is very costly.

And because it takes such a long time before you actually even can start selling, it becomes a very high burden on a small company. So, at least in the US you have the ability of kind of, you know, you do your work, you do a lot of research, you talk to a lot of kind, you know, you do all the payer research, you try to kind of look, you know, you do all the health economics.

I mean, you do all of that work. So it’s not like it’s a walk in the park. It’s very simple, but at least you can kind of like, if you do all of that in advance. At least if you have an, when you have an approval, you can actually start selling, right? You can set your price. You are aware kind of how that price, you know, what issues or benefits that might give you.

But at least you can actually kind of get going and start actually kind of commercializing. So, so it is much harder in Europe, and I think I saw that in so many instances, in so many kind of organizations that I think you either need a, you know, some kind of portfolio product so you can leverage your infrastructure.

Or you need a much bigger product. But then of course, usually if you have a bigger product, you already have a partner because, you know, so, so it’s a kind of, it’s a hard to find that kinda goldilock combination of, of, you know, having a big enough product, but you can still do it as a small company and, and again, you can get to a pricing level that’s, you know, ultimately gonna enable you to kind of get some return on that investment.

Philip Hemme: Oh, I guess you can start in the US. Once you have revenues from the US I guess you can do Europe, but yeah, when your time, your time you lost, I guess is also not worth it. So, but it’s better to go with a bigger partner. Yeah, I guess. Yeah. 

Renee Aguiar-Lucander: Yeah. So it is a, it is a bit of, it depends so much on the indication on the product and you know, the call point, right?

How many salespeople do you really need? 

Philip Hemme: Yeah. 

Renee Aguiar-Lucander: Right. I mean, ’cause there’s a big difference of kinda saying, okay, we probably need like 20 or 25. If you need a hundred or 150, I mean, that’s a very, it’s a, it’s a big difference. And so I think you, you know, you really have to kind of do your homework to kind of really at least have the best, have the best information that you can to try and model this and say, you know, is this something that we could sustainably really do?

Philip Hemme: And also now it, I mean, it makes also sense, I think from, I mean, the partnership with. More established pharma company who already has a network, already has all exactly on the, 

Renee Aguiar-Lucander: yeah, 

Philip Hemme: makes sense. 

Renee Aguiar-Lucander: Yeah. And again, for them, they, you know, they might need to kind of have three or four people focus on this drug, you know, with specific kind of use like medical affairs or certain markets.

But I mean, they have all that infrastructure already kind of in place. 

Philip Hemme: Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. 

[00:41:23] Immunology is hot

Philip Hemme: One not so more industry topic. Yeah. I’m wondering on the, I think. Immunology inflammation or I I is very like, hot at the moment. Curious how, if you’re also feeling it 

Renee Aguiar-Lucander: Yeah. 

Philip Hemme: Maybe from bio, the meetings you have, like how do you Yeah, 

Renee Aguiar-Lucander: I think it’s, it is very hot.

Yeah. But I think it’s also kind of interesting because particularly when you’re in the US and I I, I love this because you can recognize it so quickly when you have some of these kind of areas, is that. There are quite a lot of companies that have very limited data. 

Philip Hemme: Okay. 

Renee Aguiar-Lucander: And they’re very loud. So, and it’s like, it, it always happens when you have some of these areas that are developing.

So I think there is a lot of interest. I think there’s a lot of unjustifiably. So I think there’s a lot of interest. I think there are a lot, you know, these are are significant market opportunities. Yeah. But it’s a little bit, I mean, it’s a very big difference if you talk to investors or if you talk to kind of physicians, right?

They’re kinda like in con vaguely different parts of where they’re thinking about this. So, so I think it is very interesting. I think it, it holds a lot of promise 

Philip Hemme: ahead of the Yes. Of the physic 

Renee Aguiar-Lucander: absolutely. Way down the line. So but, but it absolutely, I think it holds a lot of promise and a lot of interest and, and, you know, justifiably so.

But I think it’s like most other things is that, you know, data, you know, data speaks at the end of the day. Yeah. 

Philip Hemme: What, what kind of like most interesting data you have, you know, or what is not the noise and not the noisy part? 

Renee Aguiar-Lucander: I don’t know if I can really, I think I’ve been so absorbed with trying to kind of just, you know, learn about.

Hands on trying to kinda get my arms around that science and everything else that I probably haven’t had the time to kind of properly kinda look at, you know, so many things. It, it’ll have to come, but I haven’t had a chance to do it so yet anyways. 

Philip Hemme: Okay. Because I think, yeah. And what maybe more for, for myself, but what.

The obvious one that comes to mind is, is Argen X, which I think have been a bit early, or I mean, way before the trend, but I’ve shown that it, it works super well. Yeah. I think in Europe, another one was we had the Sea of Leo Pharma on the show from there. Yeah. And there is like, and really big in, in immunology.

Yeah. Also from before there’s this Yeah. Massive deal. Like stat sex deal was, was with Gilead, which, yeah. This, that’s the, yeah. Two major, at least from, let’s say from European companies. That’s kind of the two major one that comes to my mind. Least in the Yeah, yeah. Reasons. 

Renee Aguiar-Lucander: Yeah. Oh, no, I, I would agree with that.

Sure. And both very successful companies. 

Philip Hemme: Yes. Yes. 

[00:44:04] Financing to management

Philip Hemme: Maybe to finish more a bit on the personal questions, like actually, you mentioned that you work quite a lot in financing, quite a lot in, in London. Mm-hmm. And then you transition to biotech, CEO. How was the transition like? Yeah, I mean, it’s not a un obvious, but it’s also not that obvious.

Like how was it transition? 

Renee Aguiar-Lucander: So I, I I, you, I mean, I, I, I didn’t think about it that much, I must say. I think it was just that, you know, you get this opportunity. I think that the thing that really was driving me to take on the job of kind of taking on the COO is that, again, having spent so much time on the investment side, you realize how rare it is that you actually get a product, a patient.

Right. It’s so, I mean, the big companies do, but they also have so many more things in parallel and they can, you know, they have a little bit more to choose from. 

Philip Hemme: Yeah. 

Renee Aguiar-Lucander: But as small companies, I mean, it’s, it’s, it’s so difficult to kind of try and actually get all the way to patients. And this really was something when I kind of, sort of felt like, you know, it’s not that complicated.

Right. Even I can understand it, which is good. But it had this kind of, it had a great kind of, you know, results from clinical data and really had, kind of really had this opportunity of really being a pioneer in something and solving a problem that these patients really had nothing to kind of, no one’s ever kind of, they hadn’t really focused on this rare disease.

And it just kind of felt like there was so many things that were kind of lining up that the probability of us actually taking this all the way to patient was actually reasonably high. And it’s just one of those things you can’t kind of, you can’t possibly say no to that, right? Because it, it is very exciting.

And I also think that in Europe in particular, I think there’s so many people who are, you know, very good science, very deep science, you know, excellent kind of people with, with great backgrounds. But I think one of the things that probably, I think it’s gotten better, but I think that Europe is not, has historically not been that good at, is really thinking about all the way through.

How much is it really gonna cost us to do this, right? What do we really need to do to kind of, you know, what is the, the whole kinda life cycle for this product? And so it tends to be like, you know, we’ll, we’ll, we’ll do this trial, or, you know, we’ll get this data. And then, so I think that having a bit of that, kind of having a kind of longer view and, and kind of really thinking about from a, even from a capital structure perspective, how are we gonna fund this business?

And realizing that you can’t just go through the equity markets, you have to do corporate deals, you have to kind of try and you can do debt maybe, or converts or you know, you have to try and, you know, reach all parts of the capital structure really, because it is a very capital intensive business. And with this risk profile, you know, it’s better if you kind of divine the risk between kind of different constituencies.

And so I think there, I think there is a, a, there’s a great deal of value, I think to combine some of that kind of business management, organization structure finance with kind of a really interesting science and not kind of, you know, not kind of maybe lean too much into the science, because it’s also easy to say this is the best thing and it’s the most amazing molecule in a, but you know, we’re, it’s such a global industry.

It’s so quick for other people to kind of catch up. So I think you really have to have a plan that you can really execute on very, very, very quickly. 

Philip Hemme: That’s good. I can see, yeah, I can see the more like. Investor mindset, investor return, and what, what does it really take Yeah. To go to the goal, which, yeah.

Yeah. Especially, I mean, I think especially when you come into to a company that already has data. Yeah. I guess this really helps and fits, yeah. Fits really well. Yeah. Yeah. That’s good. 

[00:47:54] Women leading biotech

Philip Hemme: And one, one thing also, you, I think you posted something last time about recent, oh, no. Quite recently. You’re trying to connect with, with other women in high leadership positions? Yeah. Can you tell me a bit more like on the why and Sure. And how? Yeah. 

Renee Aguiar-Lucander: Yeah. And, and again, I think it’s something that, you know, we, we, we can all learn, we can all improve and get better.

And I think a lot of times women as this is a blanket statement that I’m probably gonna, you know, people aren’t gonna like, but but, but I think you can be controversial, so, yeah. Women, I think tend sometimes to be very task oriented. 

Philip Hemme: Yeah. 

Renee Aguiar-Lucander: Very focused on like solving the problem, getting it fixed, you know, moving it forward and forgetting sometimes about all the value kind of in networking.

Right. So I think that sometimes we’re not as good at actually kind of reaching out and, and calling people and asking questions and doing things. And I think as I. I’ve always worked in quite men, like male dominated environments. Sign yourself. And and that is one of the things I kind of, you know, learned kind of early on that, you know, I was trying to, I don’t know, go home and read a book or figure it out or what was going and, you know, the guy on the desk next to me just picked up the phone and, you know, had it solved in 30 seconds.

I’m like, why? Why does I do this? So, so I think there is a, there is a value in kind of creating these networks and, and, and realizing that, you know, a lot of the questions that you might have. And you don’t really know how to solve this, or you don’t have the experience of doing this, or you’re looking for certain talent.

I mean, you, if you create that kind of network, I think it can be hugely valuable. And I think most people are very willing to help. And so I think you know, I think that, you know, I. Guys have great networks, but I think women probably need to kind of invest a little bit of time in it. And it’s fun.

Yeah. It’s actually very fun to kind of also have some, some networks with, with women. Yeah. You know, we can moan and groan about slightly different things. So it’s it’s fun. It’s good. 

Philip Hemme: I shoot, yesterday the interview was with, I Know From Pills by Therapeutics. One of the advice to younger life science professionals also learn was to network for Yeah, it goes into, 

Renee Aguiar-Lucander: yeah.

No, I think that, you know, you shouldn’t be a, you shouldn’t be kind of afraid of asking questions or asking for advice or, or asking if anybody has an idea of how to fix a problem or do something. So it can be much more efficient. I, 

Philip Hemme: I like them. 

[00:50:20] Quickfire

Philip Hemme: I’ll just finish a few minutes more quick fire of like quick questions, quick answers.

Okay. One of them I usually ask one advice to young. Life science professionals who wants to be in your shoes, maybe networking. Another advice. 

Renee Aguiar-Lucander: Yeah. Yeah. I would say, you know, you, you have to try and find a mentor. I also think that actually you have to be very persistent. You can’t kind of, you know, this is an industry where actually you can’t give up.

So I think you really have to kind of, you have to keep on trying. You have to be very persistent and you really have to believe. A little bit of a dream. I mean, if you don’t believe in a dream and you don’t wanna do things that seem kind of quite difficult, pick another end story. 

Philip Hemme: Yeah. What’s on top of your mind at the moment?

Renee Aguiar-Lucander: It’s the.

No, I, it’s, it’s definitely kind of, it’s handsome biopharma. 24 hours a day at the moment. That is on the top of my mind right now. All the times. 

Philip Hemme: You talked about books. What’s one of your favorite biotech or science book? 

Renee Aguiar-Lucander: Oh my God. What a question. Actually, I, I have no answer to that. I have no answer to that.

I don’t read those books. Yeah, no, I. I certain that’s, I can’t think of anything. 

Philip Hemme: One mistake you made in the past 12 months? Oof. 

Renee Aguiar-Lucander: One mistake I made in the last 12 months I probably overextended myself and overpromised. That’s gonna be very difficult for me to deliver on at a high level. So I probably took on a little bit more than I could share.

Probably what I did. 

Philip Hemme: Yeah. A last one, one new professional habit that you adopted recently. 

Renee Aguiar-Lucander: So, one of the things that I’ve adopted recently, and it probably comes with age, is the fact, you know, I, I used to kind of actually kind of write everything down on a piece of paper, which I’ve now actually stopped finally.

So now I’m actually kind of trying to, you know, embrace the whole kind of AI and everyth everything digitally. So now I’m actually kind of using much more kind of a, you know, notepads and, and, and lists, kind of all them carry with me on my phone on a daily basis. So no more kind of papers. So that’s we’re hoping that that’s gonna make me more efficient and effective.

Philip Hemme: That’s good. I like that one. Great. Yeah. Thanks Renee, for the conversation. All right. Very fun. Yeah. Thank you. Safe travel. Thank you. Thank you.

I am impressed by Renee’s expertise in execution conversation, which is quite rare in Europe. I’m also impressed by the story of kaita and the potential of hanon. If you’ve also enjoyed this episode, please hit the like follow review button. Any of his actions will help us a lot. If you want to go even further, you can make a donation with a PayPal link in the description below.

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