We’re in Hannover 🇩🇪 with the founder and CEO of Cardior, Claudia Ulbrich We talked about Cardior’s recent €1B exit to Novo Nordisk. We also talk about miRNA and Cardiovascular, and why she earned the funny nickname “Frau Biotech”.
Claudia has been founding biotechs since the ’90s. She founded her first biotech company, LipoNova AG in 1998 and went on to co-found many more, including Cardior Pharmaceuticals. During her time she has launched and brought public a cancer vaccine company, helped see through a multi-million dollar deal of over €20M, and much more.
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Intro
Claudia Ulbrich: You keep all options open and you have to go for a dual track strategy when you’re on biotech so that you are not being put into a position where you can only pick and choose one option. And that was also the case. Shando’s kids and my kids were running. The international school, Hanover region. And Schremmer said, Oh, I think I know this mom.
Oh, wow. Intriguing data. They really did amazing academic science and founded the company 2016.
Philip Hemme: That’s your nickname was whole biotech. Yeah. The biotech woman.
Bienvenue to a new episode. I’m your host Philipp and on this show, I’m interviewing the best Europeans in biotech to help you grow. There are only very few billion dollar exits in German biotechs, including micromet. Ganymede and Morphosis. And the last one is Cardio. So I went to Hannover, pretty much in the middle of Germany, to meet with Claudia Albrecht, who is the CEO and the founder.
Actually, I didn’t know Claudia personally, but I’ve heard many great things about her through my network. One thing that is especially impressive that she has been a biotech founder since the late 90s and that’s especially impressive as a female. We talked about Cardio’s recent 1 billion euro firebox exit to Novo Nordisk.
We also talked about the micro RNA targeting space and cardiovascular and why she earned the funny nickname how biotech mrs biotech in english so here’s my conversation with claudia and please like and follow if you’re enjoying it all right welcome to the show claudia
Claudia Ulbrich: Yeah. Welcome, Philip. Thank you that you are coming over.
So nice to speaking with you.
Novo Nordisk deal
Philip Hemme: Yeah, it’s great. I mean, super nice place. I like to, and I want to start with obviously the recent exits and cardio to, to Novo Nordisk and congrats first. It’s a amazing deal. I’ve just made it to start just how do you feel? How do you feel about it?
Claudia Ulbrich: Yeah, that, that’s really amazing.
So it was a tough ride on the one hand side. But also for, for me and the whole cardio team, it’s, it’s a big success. So we are all very happy about this outcome because as you know although a biotech journey is always yeah, dynamic we feel that this acquisition by NovoNordisk is a really yeah.
momentum and nearly, I would say best case, close to best case scenario for the transformative potential of our drug. And to bring in the company straightforward.
Philip Hemme: Yeah. I’m cu, I’m curious what, what was.
Claudia Ulbrich: Yeah. TAF is you always need to have as being a CEO, the vision to keep all options open.
So and also to execute on these strategic options. And there is a lot of R and D development, which we have brought through a classical GXP compliant development path over the last couple of years. We had in addition, several racings. Series A and B. So overall that, that is a tough run.
Philip Hemme: So you mean tough was the whole journey? The whole journey. More than the actual deal itself, yeah? Yeah. On the deal, I mean, when I saw the deal, and I think, I mean, it’s a 1 billion euro or 1. 020, 0. 25. I made me laugh about the 0. 25. But they didn’t was not disclosed how much was up front, how much was in milestones.
Obviously when I saw the deal, I was kind of the first thing I was wondering, okay, what’s, what’s the upfront, but at least I’ve, I’ve heard from some of your investors, they’re all very happy about the deals. I guess the, the, the amounts were very, very good. Even the upfront was pretty very good.
I’m, I’m wondering on, on this, on like, I mean, I heard also was a bit more from the NOVO side that that’s how they wanted to communicate, like, can you like, I don’t know, but disclose it, but can you comment on this, like, how, how did it like, how did it go, like?
Claudia Ulbrich: I think NOVO NORDISK identified the transformative potential of our compound, our lead compound, CDR 132L.
And they valued also the whole technology with regards to non coding RNAs in the cardiovascular space. And therefore we would say the, the deal volume is a very significant one with that roughly 1 billion. On the other hand we have agreed to not disclose any kind of details of the deal.
So what, what I can say is that we have received a significant upfront payment and several milestone payments that, that are linked to, yeah, several R& D milestones as well as commercial milestones and overall it’s a very attractive deal. Yeah. Okay.
Philip Hemme: Yeah. Yeah. That’s, sounds good. Thank you. I mean, I think you also, you mentioned more from a company looking at the different options.
I was curious about the deal as well as, I mean, you go into the clinical. I mean, you had phase one B results, I think was January or early 2021. We could talk, we’ll talk after reading details of what these results were, but I mean, you have your phase two basically ongoing. So I was also curious of, okay, why?
Why not wait for, let’s say, the end of the phase two, which is probably a big inflection point as well. Versus going to a deal before that, like, I guess you had the different options on the table or even raising another round. Yeah. Like why, why you made that choice?
Claudia Ulbrich: I think it’s always that you, you keep all options open and you have to go for a dual track strategy when you’re on biotech.
Right. So that you are not being put into a position where you can only pick and choose one option and that was also the case. So last year we prepared also a next financing round and we We could have continued to also prepare for capital markets. We have always envisaged in cardiovascular to, to partner with a big pharma partner because as you know, phase three trials are larger, they are very expensive and at this point in time I would say Novo Nordisk with the acquisition was the best option to bringing our lead compound to as many patients globally as possible.
Because they have large resources not only in terms of funds, they have clinical and commercial expertise. They are strengthening their own cardiovascular footprint and a pipeline, so, and that was a perfect match. And they yeah, they, they saw the potential also in, in bringing CDR 132L.
Into a broader and late stage development and you asked why, why we did not wait for phase two data. So finally the trial has finished recruiting. So we are now in the observational period. And expect to see top line data, yeah first quarter next year. So it’s, it’s a little bit to go there.
On the other hand side we have a very good and robust data package that show shows safety, tolerability, and already some beneficial effects on cardiovascular disease and heart failure, especially. So, and this was, was identified and, and seen also by Novo Nordisk and we, we know the company since many years.
And yeah, they say they were, they were very closely following us and felt it’s now the time because we had also the plans already for the second phase two which goes beyond the myocardial infarction heart failure population into a more. broader chronic heart failure population, and this is a larger trial which we want to start in the U.
S., and it was the right point in time to step in for Novo Nordisk and to impact on this trial also. In terms of later potential phase three opportunities and bringing this drug to markets.
Philip Hemme: So that’s also in the, in the press release or when the news was announced that Novo would start another phase two,
Claudia Ulbrich: that’s.
That’s the phase one. Yeah. That’s the phase two. We already had planned for and had designed for, and now when Novo is in charge for this trial, which fully makes sense. This will be in close cooperation with the cardio team, and they are building already on our design for the trial, and they like the population where we wanted to go for, so we will run that together.
Philip Hemme: Sounds like a, sounds like a very good fit on, on many, many levels. Yeah. So it’s that’s, that’s good. I mean, it’s, it’s amazing to have so many options because, I mean, I talk with quite a few biotechs and Especially right now, for example, the financing option is definitely like less attractive or less stuck, especially on the public market, but even the private market is not that easy.
I mean, a lot of VCs say, okay, we, we still investing, but what I hear from more executives is like, everyone is kind of waiting to see. So it’s, it’s amazing that you had yet all the options.
Results from heart disease phase1
Philip Hemme: Maybe we can go into specifically on the data and, or like, I mean, I saw the data that you announced from the, from the phase 1b that you presented.
Can you go a bit more in details on what are these data and how big was the need in this specific indication?
Claudia Ulbrich: Yeah, I think overall heart failure, affects 65 million people worldwide. So it’s a large population that has an entire need. As we all know, we have seen over the last Twenty years, I would say, only symptomatic treatments, and the last 15 years were clearly driven by ACE inhibitors, beta blockers, diuretics.
Then we have seen some new kids on the block, like the SGLT two Entresto nowadays, also GLP one inhibitors. So, I think there, there is some movement, but on the other side this is all symptomatic treatment and it does not address the root cause of the disease. And that, that was a reason why we were driving our development.
In, in first instance to myocardial infarction heart failure patients. And in the phase 1b, and that was a, was a really special tea because. We had been running large PIC trials before, and these PIC trials were also reading out on efficacy. They have shown also that the, the drug is safe.
We have been running larger toxicity trials in two species. And the authorities, they have seen our PIC data in terms of PD data readout. And they said they would, they would expect that at least if we go into an affected target population with chronic heart failure, stable chronic heart failure, that was the population we have investigated in phase 1b.
That could bring also patients more beneficial effects rather than affecting them. And that was the reason why we could skip a healthy vulnerability study. That saved the company time and money. That was really, really good. That’s why
Philip Hemme: you went into
Claudia Ulbrich: the one. Yeah. And that was the reason why we went into phase 1B.
So we were not only allowed, we were also recommended to do that. We’re different. And had a very stable population. We had four different dose, doses in this trial. Okay. Signal and ascending dose, five on treatment, two on placebo. And what we could show was that we did not have seen any kind of liver or kidney toxicity, platelets were all fine.
Everything that you know from oligos that might affect patients, could not have been identified. And moreover, it, it, it showed beneficial effects in terms of yeah ECG parameters We, what, what, what we have that is specialty. We have the microRNA 132. This is not only found in a tissue, it’s also found in the plasma.
And you have a clear correlation between plasma levels of 132 and tissue levels. So that we could clearly monitor also how our drug affects people in different dosages. And we, we brought these microondate levels in the blood to, to normal levels in our PD active doses of this phase 1 P trial.
And that was, was the beauty. So you had a clear biomarker as well? It’s a clear biomarker and that built the rationale then to go into a phase 2, which really is the proof of the booty. Yeah. You, you need that. So the efficacy trial, and there we, we chose in our view, the best indication where we could show in a timely manner, proof of concept.
Thus, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s a niche indication for sure, but we, we need to, to view that none of the current drugs, which, which are on the market or are being investigated in clinical trials. have shown any kind of difference in post myocardial infarction heart failure patients. So also the latest trials with, with the Gleiflocins they didn’t bring really significance.
And that, that is a niche where we felt we can make a difference. So the, this product, yeah, might act as a game changer. And now for sure for pharma, it’s the larger market, it’s the chronic heart failure market. And that was the reason Why we said after having now finished or finished on the recruitment for phase two and post myocardial infarction heart failure, we will now go into the chronic heart failure market, but also in a very specific subpopulation of heart failure.
Patients that have left ventricular hypertrophy this is one of the inclusion criteria. And that is independent of ejected fraction. So, and it, it affects also the half path population, for example, combined with left ventricular hypertrophy. This is really, really an, a dire need. So and, and that was really intriguing, also novel to buy in our development path.
Philip Hemme: I like that. I mean, I like that it’s really clear. Smaller, smaller indication, but very targeted, which you could prove and then scale, scale or expand. And I can imagine even for no, it’s like, there’s still a phase two readouts maybe next year that where they know, okay, how is efficacy and then they can also decide on, on how to scale that.
And right. So even for them, that’s, and it makes me realize also, I mean, cardiovascular is always think about whatever one disease, but it’s, I guess. whatever, hundreds or thousands of different, like, like in oncology, I can imagine it’s like, I don’t know if it’s as specific as like sub rare diseases in oncology, maybe a bit less, like, but it’s, I guess, similar with a lot of sub population and subgroups.
Claudia Ulbrich: Yeah. Chronic heart failure is a segmented population and there are for, for several populations also additional symptomatic treatments. So it’s not intended to replace everything also with regard to the very unique mode of action, it fits to many of the established drugs at the moment. And if there are obese patients they will get additional special drugs for obesity, others for diabetes, for example and the like.
So but, but we feel we, we have a drug in hand. That is able to also improve systolic as well as diastolic function. And that is something you want to see with a, with a new transformative treatment or in a, in a disease modifying modality. So we, we are able, or we have shown increased hypertrophy we have decreased hypertrophy being able to show.
We have increased contractility. We have a reduced fibrosis and also enhanced microcapillar density in these hearts.
Philip Hemme: So, so at the end of the day, I mean you, from my understanding also you are You are preventing new episodes on your, from new episodes happening your heart failure is happening, but you’re also, say improving or reverse the progression or like, I don’t know if that’s the right term to correct me, but
Claudia Ulbrich: yeah, I, I think if, if you look into these non coding RNAs, as we all know they are not coding for proteins.
But they are so called master regulators of the cellular function, and they can act down on several different path, streams. So and yeah, what, what they, they, they act like my, my colleague Thomas, he’s our scientist, he’s our brave founder yeah, and, and we founded the company together.
So he always explains that like micro on 832. Is like a conductor in an orchestra. Yeah. And if, if he gets out of control then you won’t get the right music in your cell. Yeah. And if you, if you bring your conductor back on stage, yeah, then it acts down on the several messenger RNAs in the cell and can normalize that detrimental pathways and reduce the.
pathological enhanced mitra on A132, levels in the cell and, and that is, that is a beauty where you have different angles where the drug can act and thus it’s more not only preventing, but also halting and reversing a disease. Yeah. That makes, that makes that so unique. Yeah. Yeah.
MicroRNA
Philip Hemme: Yeah. I mean, I looked into, yeah, that was perfect transition to the next question on like about microRNA, I mean, from what I heard, like, they one specific microRNA can, like, impact, whatever, hundreds of different SNJ RNA, so kind of a massive cascade.
And if that’s also a thing where, I mean, a lot of drugs, where, where they are to target the microRNAs, because they’re just such a big impact and big, big impact. Whatever pathway could be impacted, leading usually everything is to, to pretty high toxicity, but so how, and I also, at least from what I’ve seen that you guys were basically one of the first three micro RNA targeting, like, at least in cardio where it really seems to work or work better versus other trials where, yeah, just what I said that just to high toxicity, so, like, what’s, like, Yeah, what, what specifically did you figure out basically, to make it work versus also?
Claudia Ulbrich: I think and first instance there was a different approach to identify the right microRNA. So in Thomas Lapps he did over many years. Structured vet lab experiments, robot based screening of hundreds, thousands of micro on ace. And finally found that one which, which he brought from the cell culture dish.
Yeah, in, in, into patients now over the course of a very contingent pharma GXP compliant process. But the difference was. We, we are sometimes asked whether there are other groups that have also been doing research in, in 132. Yes that has been done. But finally the, the whole IP that is around that, that was filed by the in 2012 with the first patent family by Thomas to, to the medical school Hanover and Cardio has licensed that exclusively.
And we have built a large protection around this asset, but what, what makes it unique, I think is also the chemistry. We have been working with different chemistries until we found that specific A locked nuclear acid chemistry. And that has a specific spiking pattern that stands for low toxicity.
So before we brought it into animals, we have been ensuring that the chemistry is a real optimal one. Yeah. And there were. And there were. Effective knockdown experiments the target is 100 percent conserved really from fish to, to worm, to, to mice, to pigs, to human that is, is a guarantee for the translation of the different results you get.
This is not the case in, in every micro A, but with 132 that that was successful. Okay.
Philip Hemme: And also this, you, you’re downregulating it, right?
Claudia Ulbrich: We are downregulating it. Okay. Yeah. So we are blocking this micro A Okay. So you have once the cardiac muscle gets into stress, being at a myocardial infarction.
Micro on 132 levels are increased. Yeah. And what we are doing is we, we target the micro on a by having antisense oligonucleotide. Yeah. That is a 16 R oligonucleotide based on a locked nucleic acid. 16 B 16 base. Yeah. With a Phosphol Hy Backbone. Yeah. And it’s very stable. Yeah, chemistry. So and, and this goes directly into cardiomyocytes.
Binds to the 132 micro RNA blocks it for four weeks or the like it does not destroy the target. It, it’s not like, like an si RNA, which destroys the target. So there is a difference. Yeah. And this binding which is repeated in, in our current trial for three times. In the more chronic setting, it will be repeated for six times.
So every month, the, the patient will receive an injection, and that, that should be sufficient which, which has been studied and showcased in these large pig trials. So we had two different animal models, one with the subacute setting and one with a chronic setting. Okay. Yeah.
Philip Hemme: And that, I’m curious, just, do you know exactly, like, I mean, you say blocking, but, you know, I guess you can also quantify or like measure the amount of, of, of, of mRNA left.
Yeah. You’re blocking, or like, We
Claudia Ulbrich: are
Philip Hemme: blocking, We are
Claudia Ulbrich: reducing the target with more than 50%, 55%. This is then also the PD active scenario if you, if you use a dose that is able to reduce your target. More than 55 percent than you are effective. And in, in our studies, we were also able to show a knockdown of 80 to 90%.
Okay. Yeah.
Philip Hemme: But I guess you still won’t. Yeah.
Claudia Ulbrich: But if you want to dive into more detail. Yeah. You need to ask. So see us all.
Philip Hemme: Okay. No, I mean, I’m, I’m curious also on, I mean, as, as from the beginning of the discussion on the, on the microRNA. I mean. As it impacts so much. I guess there also some other function even in a 132 that has some functioning that it might be good to not knock down a hundred percent.
Yeah, just That’s true. Some, yeah. That was my last thought, but yeah, I, I like, I mean, I like that because, yeah. Yeah, so if I summarize really the Yeah. The target, but also the, the chemistry and how you attack the, let’s say attack you, you, yeah. Target the target, the target. Because I, I remember in microRNA, Abivax was on the show, and, but they target with some small molecules, also target microRNAs, but with small molecules, seems to work also pretty well.
But I mean, I’m running a phase three at least, we’ll, we’ll see how, how this goes.
The history of Cardior
Philip Hemme: Maybe I’m curious on the On the, I mean, you touched a bit on the history of the company. Maybe can you share a bit more of like, I don’t know how you met Thomas? Yeah, I mean, I guess he was not far off already in Hanover.
How do you met him? How did you get started? Yeah, the whole like kind of founding story.
Claudia Ulbrich: Yeah, you won’t believe it. So it is, it was really in 2016, my first advisory mandate with a biotech client in Hanover. So, so I’m doing now a business in the life science industry more than 25 years. So I have been working as an advisor.
Also for top tier consultants like PricewaterhouseCoopers and others I founded a known consultancy in 2008 helping biotech clients to spin out their companies, to raise funds. To bringing in IP and to develop the organization sometimes by participating in these companies or doing interim management, and the like.
So, so yeah, I have been an entrepreneur since yeah, I would say roughly yeah, yeah. Yeah, 1998, that was, that was the year when I founded my first biotech company that was a cancer vaccine company. And if you look into today’s business, also with Moderna, BioNTech and others now cancer vaccines are the hotspot.
Yeah, all old group
Philip Hemme: back back,
Claudia Ulbrich: but, but 20 years ago or 25 years ago there was pioneering a field Yeah. With all the pros and cons. And I think it’s a little bit the same also with these yeah. Non-coding RNAs. And it, it, it has really a tremendous potential. But back to Thomas. So I had never a client in Hanover, although I live in Hanover since 2000.
And
Philip Hemme: you studied in Hanover, right?
Claudia Ulbrich: No, I studied, I studied at the university in Lübeck in the North, Northern Germany. And I had a second study in Rheingau where I was at the European business school. So did health economics. I did my promotion, my, my thesis in, in Hanover. And yeah, I founded my first company in Hanover.
That was the reason why I moved to Hanover. Yeah, and yeah, I, I met Thomas after I had spun out a company together with other founders in, in Heidelberg. There was also a cardiovascular company they, they were doing gene therapy also for cardiovascular diseases, heart failure. It was very, very intriguing story and I was advisor to them.
Finally, we sold the company after, yeah, after its inception half a year later to Unicure. And Unicure as the gene therapy pope so to say, yeah also pioneers in the field. I, I was working then for, for
Philip Hemme: Unicure. We, we had Sander on the, on the show. Yeah. I don’t know if you worked at, he was still there at the same period as you were.
Claudia Ulbrich: Yeah,
Philip Hemme: Sander
Claudia Ulbrich: van de Venter. And yeah, I, I, I worked together with Jørn and with, with Hans. And we sold one year later the whole gene therapy and additional nine targets in gene therapy and cardiovascular to, to BMS. Yeah, okay. That was 2015. And that was the time Thomas yeah was, was yeah, alerted and he found my name in the press.
And we have another co founder Shandor Batkay, so and, and they were doing research together at medical school. And Shandor’s kids and my kids were running, haha, the international school Hanover Region. And Shandor said, Oh, I think I know this mom, and I can, can ask her. And then they, they shooted an email.
Whether I would be able and willing to look at that data. So, and that was the story back in 2015 and I looked at the data saying, Oh, let’s see. I don’t think that your target is such a way better than what I sold a couple of weeks before, but curious to, to take a look. And then, then I felt, Oh, wow, intriguing data.
They really did amazing academic science. They, they had good data and yeah I felt we, we should develop a business plan together and build that upon a really thorough development plan. So scientists yeah, that they, they are not really familiar with R& D in the pharma industry, but we did that together also with one or two other people from my consultancy, yeah, and, and, and started through and founded the company 2016 and raised then funds in a series A 2017 this round was led by in these days LSP.
Nowadays equity, and we raised 15 million to bring the compounds through the preclinical stages, through the large animal models, toxicology studies, and the completion of the phase 1B. That was all the series A round, and we started with five people two academics three including myself from the business side I started as advisor, and then part time CEO.
And since the B round in 2021 I, I was responsible for the whole business as being a full time CEO for Cardiopulmonary. I had an active consultancy business, so I had other clients, but that was how we met. And Thomas said, Oh, I, I’m intrigued always by science, but I need somebody who is familiar with the, with the business and how to build a company.
And I think this, this is a very interdisciplinary approach and also some, some factor of success. So as, as we all know, you need good science. You need good patents, good, good people. You need a strong execution and all, always a little luck.
Philip Hemme: Yeah. I liked it.
Claudia Ulbrich: Yeah.
Philip Hemme: I mean, the more, even the guests on the show, there’s always a luck component, which is, I mean, it’s just there.
It’s very hard to measure, but I find it very also, and there’s, there’s some fun in the luck element and it’s also humbling that there’s, there’s something that you cannot control like even in any entrepreneurial journey, I think. It’s, it’s amazing, amazing story. I mean, so basically almost, what, almost 10 years, basically.
15 to almost, almost, you know.
Claudia Ulbrich: Yeah, the first point of contact is right things. Yeah, about 10, 10 years ago.
Philip Hemme: It’s an amazing story. Yeah, it’s a I love this story. And about, about Hanover, I mean, yeah, I mean, actually, It’s not the biotech
Claudia Ulbrich: hub itself.
Philip Hemme: Yeah. Like, actually, somehow, I was like, I don’t know really why.
I think one of your, the VP business, I think he’s based in Munich, right? Peter. Our VP BDNL. And because I kind of saw the deals through him and I was like, ah, then I was like, I don’t know why I assumed you were Munich based. Yeah. And so I’m like, no, no. I think he is one of the only biotech in Hannover.
Just funny. And so, yeah, how, how, like, how was it to, to build here? I mean, like, like, yeah, how, how was it? I mean, you always hear, okay, it’s important to be in the ecosystem and whatever, like, But in Europe they are smaller than in Boston or whatever in the U. S., but it’s really important to be in the ecosystem, have things around if you are kind of the only one.
But how, like, maybe, how was it, like, how?
Claudia Ulbrich: Yeah, I think it, it, it was straightforward because the roots. Not only of the disease, but also the roots of the company are clearly in Lower Saxony. So it was a spin out from medical school Hanover. And Thomas is leading an institute there with 50 people working in translational strategic therapies.
He has done several years of, of this RNA research. So and in, in first instance, we, we got some support by a local incubator. We closed a framework agreement with MHH having rent and lease agreements in the first two to three years. And yeah, we, we built the company from really five people to, to more than 20 and with And as you can see, we have attracted international venture capital and we had right from the start also pharma participation with the Bristol Myers, and also the second round of, of race.
Was done during the COVID time. Yeah. Not many companies got venture funds in, in that amount. So it was 64 million euros. So overall the company raised 80 in these days. And yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s not a biotech hub like Munich or like the Rhine area or, or Mainz with BioNTech, for example.
But overall, you can do it everywhere. So sometimes it, it, it was a bit challenging to, to grow the company with the right people. Because if you build more capabilities in terms of business finance business development, clinical operations, quality assurance, all what you need. To bring your compounds into phase two but overall we have been growing now to 32 people and we have people that are coming over every second week in our project weeks from Frankfurt, from Mainz, from Munich, from Freiburg yeah, Berlin, so, so.
This, this is not the reason. So if, if, if you have a good company, if you have a good culture and people like to working towards a common goal then they are also willing to commute. Yeah. And in, in our world after COVID, it’s also a hybrid world. And we, we have to find also new models how to work.
Philip Hemme: Yeah. And I guess also, I mean, it helps also in Germany that it’s, I think at least, I mean, I’m half German, half French living in Berlin, but Berlin, Hanover is like one half hour and Hanover is pretty central in Germany. So I guess you can get there from pretty much anywhere in Germany and whatever. What?
Three, four hours. Deutsche Bahn is not on strike and
Claudia Ulbrich: it’s not on strike.
Philip Hemme: That’s the harder part. I guess for flying, it’s a bit, maybe a bit harder from the, from airport wise, but
Claudia Ulbrich: yeah, because you have to go in transit,
Philip Hemme: I mean, yeah. And I think also maybe also from the business case, I just said, I mean, you grew the team, but it’s, you didn’t need like to grow a team to hundreds of people where I guess that it becomes a bit more challenging.
Yeah. If it’s a relatively small team, I like that. Actually, it made me think about what you say makes me think about our first guest was Antoine Papiarnik from Sophie Nova. And we talked a bit about location and he said, like, I don’t care where the company is, something like, if it’s in Dijon or in Saragosse or something, it, it needs to be set up as a global biotech company and on the, whatever.
Yeah,
Claudia Ulbrich: but on the other hand, if you would then like to go for the US for, for preparing capital markets or the like. You, you can always open a subsidiary. This is, this is, this is not rocket science. Yeah.
Philip Hemme: Yeah. I like that. But I think, I mean also from seeing how you, how, how the set up of the office, it feels like very like top level biotech.
Yeah. If you are in Hanover or not, you can. It takes a bit more effort maybe or something, but I think it’s one of the key. I mean, and you can compensate and whatever. But I think at the end, I mean, you, you proved it, that it, it works. I liked it. And I like also on the VC. I mean, I saw, and you mentioned LSP or equity.
I mean, basically I think top three VCs in Europe. I mean, I was fighting with Sofino and having worse, but let’s be polite as top three, and then. I saw that you even have, at least in the Series B, was, was Biomed with Markus. Yeah. And we talked a bit about, about you as well.
Claudia Ulbrich: Markus was, was also in Series A.
Philip Hemme: Also in the Series A?
Claudia Ulbrich: Yes. Right from the start.
Philip Hemme: Okay. And then Sunstone joined.
Claudia Ulbrich: Sunstone joined in B. Inkef and FunPlus joined in B. Koperion joined in B. Yeah. It
Philip Hemme: was a large one. And it’s amazing that you had really a, like, full European, like,
Claudia Ulbrich: Yeah, there were still Haitian, yeah, there were five new.
Philip Hemme: But you had, like, really from all over, all over Europe, I mean, and I guess then you would do your board meeting here.
Claudia Ulbrich: Yes, that’s true. Yeah, that, that, that, that is true. That’s the boardroom. And yeah, we, we like it and you, you can run it in a hybrid setting and we have very good technical equipment and also flights, although Hanover is, is, is not the, the hub, if, for example, you go from Copenhagen to Hanover, you have an SAS flight.
Oh, yeah. Okay. Yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s not three times per day, but you have one direct flight per day. So it’s an hour. And that also makes our collaboration where we started with the transaction in the future very smooth. Yeah. It’s not far away. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Same time zone, support in any case yeah the conversations and integrations.
Philip Hemme: Yeah, yeah, nice.
Working with Centerview
Philip Hemme: Maybe if we, if we zoom out a bit on like, I mean, we had some zoom out already, but zoom out. One on the BD side, I’m curious you. I saw that Centerview was one of your advisors on the deal. And I think, I mean, I’m amazed at least in the past few years, especially let’s say in, in 2023, I think they’ve advised like for whatever, 80 plus percent of the 1 billion plus deals globally in biopharma, which is which is crazy.
And I’m just curious on how was it to work with them? Like, why, yeah, why did you pick them? Like, like if you can, if you can share.
Claudia Ulbrich: Yeah, I think, it’s a bit difficult to answer because, once it comes to such kind of evaluation of a transaction which we have been faced at the end of last year, it’s, it’s shareholder matter.
And as you know, we have 10 investors in the company. And they have also their networks and their relationships, and there, there came a recommendation, because typically we had always envisaged such kind of farmer partnership, but it was not that we were running a classical process, which we would, for example, have been setting up.
After phase two data, for example in the whole
Philip Hemme: like bidding process, this
Claudia Ulbrich: is a different story. But sometimes if you have as many investors and you have also management sellers, for example, it’s somehow valuable to have a neutral, body in, in the game that on the one hand side has the experience and the network does the valuations, for example, And yeah advises on the deal.
So, from a, from a BD perspective I would say there was no big need because we have the expertise in house. And
Philip Hemme: as you said, you were in contact with Novo.
Claudia Ulbrich: Yeah, we were we were already in contact with Novo. So that, that, that, that. that was established but finally the devil is always in the details.
Yeah. And yeah, I think it, it was helpful and valuable to have a neutral body into the game.
Philip Hemme: Just what makes me curious also is that they are, I mean, from their position, they basically see every deal on both sides. So like, I mean, I guess you can rapidly have some conflict of interest slash flight.
Like, some, yeah, let’s say conflicts, but I guess, yeah, that’s like, for what you said, Sans.
Claudia Ulbrich: Yeah, this is something you would need to ask them, have you? I cannot go on. I
Philip Hemme: will ask, I will ask them. But it’s good, I mean, also that, that they, yeah, they have a reputation, they’ve done all the deals, so even as you as a, whatever, Hanover based biotech and you work with them, it’s also, I think, probably a good sign also to, for, for all the potential acquirers.
I mean, makes, makes total sense.
Frau Biotech
Philip Hemme: Maybe, yeah, on the one thing we, we talked before, before starting the two that I heard. That’s, and you’ve been in this stream, you’re, you’re I think one of the few like top level or like C level women in this space, especially early on, I heard that your nickname was, was how, how biotech, the biotech woman, sound pretty funny.
How, like first, where, where did this nickname came from or who, like, if you can share the story about it. And more like, what was your experience like, from like, whatever, 20, 30 years ago?
Claudia Ulbrich: Yeah, I think it was quite unusual that a biotech company is not only founded, but also run by a female leader, that, that was only in single cases.
So most of this world 25 years ago Was a man’s world and is still a man’s world, that we will be more, there will be more of us. And I think that, that has improved also in the biotech area, not only in, in terms of Being a leader in a biotech company, but also in venture, there are more female in doing venture business, being partner in a venture company and the like.
So I think that that will still take a while until this is, this is equal being recognized. But yeah, I really didn’t care about it, to be honest. So, I was confident in, in my skills and I wanted to do that. I have an entrepreneurial mindset and spirit. I’ve done it now for several times, yeah spinning out companies or founding or co founding companies and Yeah, I think it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s specific to have female in, in a leadership position but it’s more from a diversity perspective.
It’s not that you need to be, or you need to have a female or male CEO, so you should always go for. What is best for the company and what is best for the team? Then you should see that there is a balance, but what, what I would give at hand to every founder or co founder who wants to build a company or wants to start off.
Be curious, yeah, courageous, yeah, build in your confidence, and also face that you will make mistakes, yeah, so, and, and, in any case, you, you learn by failure, and that makes you more resilient, because on the other hand, you, you, you need for sure, tenacity, and the like, Yeah, and, and, yeah, I, I, I never had the feeling to not dare to do that.
So why not? So and my education was, was pretty clear, straightforward. My parents always. Yeah. Trusted on, on my skills and capabilities. You can do what you want to do. But if you do it, do it right. Yeah. And consequent . So, and yeah, there, there also needs to be some fun, but I wouldn’t say there is something specific.
Yeah. You, you, you need to grow together with your team, with your leadership team and hopefully have interdisciplinary skills not only in terms of finance or BD or science or whatever, but, but I liked always that, that overall architecture on managing, orchestrating, So that strategic thinking.
Yeah. And that is what, what I’m doing now for more than 25 years. And I like it.
Philip Hemme: I like, I like what you, yeah. I mean, you have to like what’s, what you’re doing. I mean, I think for, for anyone, but also. Running a company in my had a mean a bit of experience, but it’s, it’s so difficult. It’s so tough that if you don’t enjoy it, one of the parts at least, it’s, it’s just very hard also to, to, to, to go through.
So, and I think any kind of job, it’s much better if you Mm-Hmm. where you enjoy it and have some fun in, in it. But I, I, I really like what you said at the beginning as well as, okay. I just have, I just. ignored it or whatever that it was on the only male world and I was just going for what I wanted to do and and what attracted me and just yeah kind of ignored and at the end it worked also like how like it worked I’m I think that I, I heard that from, so we had Agneta, for instance, from Lycote also against the vaccines and, and we talked quite a lot about, about that.
And she said something basically similar, I was in there, I just, I mean, was founding the science in the lab and then I had this technology like, and I really wanted to build a company, so I just went for it. And she mentioned some like. Challenges for sure, but also accepting some of the challenges and just whatever going through and
Claudia Ulbrich: yeah But, but I didn’t answer your, your question on, on misbiotic.
Philip Hemme: Yeah.
Claudia Ulbrich: When I founded my first company, Liponova, that was that cancer vaccine company, that was in 1998. So over the course of the early, century, 2000 millennium yeah, I, I, I was really, I would say an exception. Yeah. So yeah. And yeah, some people they, they always recognize me sitting on a panel or presenting the company or, yeah, and, and, and sometimes they forgot my last name.
And then they said, Oh, this is Ms. Lipunova or Ms. Biotech, so I always had that name. And I think in first instance, They, they said it in my back, so I, I didn’t hear it. But yeah once it came to a very funny yeah contact at, at one of the conferences somebody said, And I was like, are you kidding me?
But it
Philip Hemme: sounds like you didn’t take it too personally either. Like,
Claudia Ulbrich: yeah,
Philip Hemme: no but Yeah. All fine. It’s funny in hindsight. Yeah. And actually, you’re the first, you’re the first woman on the show from Germany. And even in Germany, I mean, this is biotech founder, Sam. I mean, she’s definitely also in the, in the top level, but otherwise, really in like CEO position or even managing director, it’s, Yeah, it’s, it’s not that easy.
I mean, even for me, even to find GIST, it’s, it’s not that, it’s not that easy, I have to say. I don’t know, but it’s great. It’s great, really, and it’s great we managed to talk. Maybe if, or if some last thoughts or last lessons you want to share or something, just as a, as a wrapping up, like, you know.
Claudia Ulbrich: Yeah, I think that was up to now an amazing story and journey with cardio and I think it will continue so, and we will try to bring this program to success now together with Novo.
Yeah, and yeah, I’m, I’m really keen to, to join the story a little longer and to see that the transition is being done very professionally and the next trial is on the fly. So that finally our drug hopefully reaches as many as possible patients globally. Yeah. Yeah. Great.
Philip Hemme: And great, great story.
Thanks for listening
Philip Hemme: Yeah. Great conversation. Thanks a lot.
Claudia Ulbrich: Thank you for your time and this great interview. Thank you very much.
Philip Hemme: Thanks for listening to the end. I’m impressed by what Claudia has built with cardio and how she executed with so many like options, clarity, and how far biotech was open. If you’ve also enjoyed this episode, please hit the like, follow, review button.
Any of these actions would help us a lot. And also I would be curious to hear what you think. So if you could leave a comment. whatever platform you are or message me at philip at float dot bio. All right, see you in the next episode.
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