We’re in Copenhagen 🇩🇰 with Christophe Bourdon, the CEO who turned a 116-year-old biopharma company from the brink of failure to success. We discuss the lessons behind the turnaround, innovation in dermatology, especially biologicals and I&I, and living in eight different countries.

⭐️ ABOUT THE SPEAKER

Christophe Bourdon came to be CEO of Leo Pharma in 2022, where he was tasked with the massive assignment of transforming the financially failing company into a success. Luckily he had gained experience in roles of increasing leadership importance in many EU biotech companies, Sanofi, Amgen, and Alexion, as well as leading the smaller biotech, Orphazyme A/S, as their CEO. Now Leo Pharma is in the green.

🔗 LINKS MENTIONED

– Marc de Garidel, Abivax | How to make two Billion-dollar exits (“smoothly”) | E09: https://flot.bio/episode/marc-de-garidel-abivax-exit/

– Jens Nielsen, BII | How to make translation of life science research work | E12: https://flot.bio/episode/jens-nielsen-translation-of-life-science-research/

– On the Origin of Species: Charles Darwin: https://tinyurl.com/2nbhkecs

– Gilead roars into JPM25, inking $1.7B inflammation deal with Leo Pharma: https://www.fiercebiotech.com/biotech/gilead-roars-jpm25-250m-upfront-research-deal-leo-pharma

– Homepage LEO Pharma, history and pipeline: http://leo-pharma.com/

Transcript

[00:00:00] Intro

Christophe Bourdon: So look, there is no magic bullet. Being authentic, embracing it, be transparent, being venerable when it’s tough. But as a CEO, every morning when you show up at work, you need to show confidence and show like what’s a path forward, one step at a time and be absolutely ruthless about this. You sound ruthless.

I want. 

Philip Hemme: Immunology inflammation generally is, is very hot, 

Christophe Bourdon: fully agree. INI, immunology, inflammation. Everyone is rebranding themselves and I think it’s more like a white space and people are saying, INI, we can change the world. I’m optimistic about the real scientific progress that can be made. But again, you know, along the way some will learn the hard way that it’s not gonna be a, a walk in the park.

Philip Hemme: Like me, you’re French German, you’ve lived in many countries, eight. I lived 

Christophe Bourdon: and work in eight countries. Yes. 

Philip Hemme: Crazy, crazy. Especially, I mean crazy. 

Christophe Bourdon: Very early. You learn that cliche. I don’t like cliche, and the world is full of cliche and I have a big aver for that.

Philip Hemme: We have new to new episode. I’m your host Phillip, and on the show I’m interviewing the best Europeans [00:01:00] in biotech to help you grow. How do you turn around 116 years old Biopharma. Company. One of the best examples in this space is Leo Farmer, the CEO Christophe Godel, who joined three years ago, and the company is now back in the green.

So I went to Copenhagen to catch up with him. I’ve known him for many years when years back at Amgen, and it’s actually the first time we meet offline. We talked about the lessons behind the turnaround. We also talked about innovation in dermatology, especially around biologicals, immunology, and inflammation.

Very hot topic and about living in eight different countries. So here’s my conversation with Christophe, and please hit the like follow button if you’re enjoying it.

Oh, welcome to the show. First stuff. Thank you. Morning. Yeah. Great to be here. Great to be on site. Yeah. 

Christophe Bourdon: I love it.

[00:01:54] Turnaround of LEO Pharma

Philip Hemme: Yeah. And I wanna start with Yeah. With Leo Farmer at large, especially the, the turnaround from basically loss making to bring it back to profitability. And you joined really to bring this to, to this mission three years ago.

Just wondering how, how are things going there? 

Christophe Bourdon: Yeah. Thanks for, thanks for being here. Thanks for the question. I think, you know, so I started three years ago. Yeah. And it’s super interesting. You know, it’s a company that was created 116 years ago 60 years of strong focus in medical dermatology.

And every year the company is serving a hundred million patients in more than 70 countries. So starting point is it’s a strong brand. I think every single dermatologist in the world has or is prescribing some LEO products. I think everyone has a little visiting tube at home in the pharmacy. And, and, and so when you start, you know, being a CEO of such a company, you, you wanna make sure that you need to protect and what’s working.

’cause there are many things that is working well. Having said that, we also needed to address, you know, what was not working well. And so together with the board, the, the, the question was, you know, how could we accelerate the growth? Because there are a lot of opportunities in the field of medical dermatology.

So where to grow, how to grow. That was question number one. Question number two is what does it take for a company of more than a century to continue to innovate, you know, in an environment where, yes, there is still a lot of unmet need, but you know, there is a lot of competition, a lot of biotech are popping up in the field of, of immunology, so how can they innovate?

And the third thing is, how can the company drive a more profit? I mean, the starting point in 2021 minus 17% of ebitda. Clearly not sustainable. And I think, you know, looking back three years down the road, you know, we just announced the year 2024 results. Top line, 10% growth again for the company like second year in a row.

10 quarters of WG growth. We nailed, you know, we grew exactly where we wanted to grow with the product. We wanted to grow. Innovation wise, we have, you know, made significant progress and happy to speak more about it. On the profit. You know, we close a year at you know, with clearly enough sites giving guidance for this year of 15 to 18% of plus ebitda.

So, you know, it’s really, I mean, some newspaper calling, one of the largest turnaround in, in, in, in, in Danish you know, industrial history. And I think, you know, it’s it’s, we are on track. We’re making very good progress. 

Philip Hemme: Positive yeah. You covered the questions. Great. I’m curious on the, on the how, because turning around an organization with 4,000 people is, I mean, must, there’s a lot of change management, I guess.

Christophe Bourdon: Yeah, I mean, it’s a very humbling job and I think, you know, I would be the first one to say we’ve made a lot of progress. But, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s a day to day focus. So I think the first thing you need to do is bringing clarity of where you want to go. Give hope to people, give perspective. In this industry, if you’re not able to articulate that, there is hope and, you know, vision, people will run away and they will go somewhere else.

Partners will not, you know, work with us. So you need to have a clear view of, of, of the future. This is where point number one we spend a lot of time on, on the strategy reaffirming that, you know, we care about making a difference for patients. This really was communicated across the organization and then be very clear, we need to grow, we need to innovate.

Bring profit, you know, has been like every month, every month I do a one hour turn hall with the entire organization, articulating confident in the future, but also transparency on where we are and what does it take to get there. And I’m like the voice of the transformation really being transparent on this.

Then is, it’s not an Excel exercise. You need to translate those PowerPoint and Excel spreadsheets into a human adventure. And me alone, you know, like, okay, right. I have a vision, but people can say slap shop, slap. They need to kind of be inspired and, and follow you. So one of the things I’ve, I’ve, I’ve done was to create an extended leadership team.

So 70 people like. Basically the leadership team minus one, and those 70 leaders are the one that are really driving the change on a day-to-day basis. And the way we have, again, one hour teams call every month, twice a year. We have like a two days offsite where we tackle everything, you know, where we making progress.

We, it’s tough. And of course, you know, when you go from 6,000 to 4,000 employees, you know, it’s tough. It’s tough on keyboard. It’s tough to see colleagues leave. It’s uncertain who does what. So you need to consciously bring clarity. So look, there is no magic bullet. Being authentic, embracing it, be transparent, being vulnerable when it’s tough.

But as a CEO, every morning when you show up at work, you need to show confidence and show like what’s a path forward, you know, one step at a time and be absolutely ruthless about this. 

Philip Hemme: I like it. You sound ruthless. 

Christophe Bourdon: No, and I, I and, and what I can say, you know, some people are, is it, 

Philip Hemme: you sound very clear. I mean, is there’s a clarity about it, like, 

Christophe Bourdon: it, it is you know, I cannot, if I’m not clear, then, you know, 4,000 people will have question mark and then it’s, it’s total chaos.

And, and look, once what we do is in Leo is having an engagement survey. I take this very seriously. When I started three years ago, one of my first thing, I sent an email to all the employees and say, Hey, what should we, you know, keep, what should we change, what we should stop doing at Leo? And I got like, I don’t know, 1,500 answers.

I read all of them, and I think what it says was, organization, they’re super proud to work for you. When you work for a company that has more than a century of history, yes, people are proud. People were okay. Christophe give us some hope, reason to believe that we are gonna be successful in this general, you know, and, and I think, you know, this is what I take very, with a lot of humility as a CEO is, is, is bringing back the pride of working forlio to the employees.

And, and that’s why, you know, being very transparent on the progress and also on the lack of progress is what, you know, people expect from me. Yeah. And you build trust. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. 

Philip Hemme: I like that. I think we can talk more about the also leadership lessons a a bit after. 

[00:08:47] Current products at LEO Pharma

Philip Hemme: Maybe just, you mentioned also on the, on the, on the current product what I’ve seen in the current product offering a we is basically your lead product, but was also launched quite recently.

Yes. Can you talk a bit more about like how it looks like and Yeah. Yeah. At the moment and a lot of the a hundred million people, like a hundred million customers. Yeah. What, what’s the split basically. 

Christophe Bourdon: So the, the core of the es what we call established portfolio, is like 18 brands, you know, that have been here around so the first one in, in, in, in the sixties.

And we have continuously been surfing different wave of innovation. A Bria is is is an IL 13. In use for patient affected by atopic dermatitis. So we don’t disclose exactly, but you know, the number of patient. But what what’s interesting is if I look at the field of atopic dermatitis, roughly, we have like a middle, single digit percentage, like five to 10% of eligible patients were treated with biologics.

And so. The more products are available, the more awareness, you know, doctors have more, it’s, it’s rising and the more options patients have. So we see the market growing. And Adva is, yes, it’s growing. It’s been growing like 69% last year. I. It’s approved in 20 countries. Yeah. Including Japan. We have, you know, brought up like an auto injector on top of the prefilled syringe.

What has been interesting for us is it’s been the first biologics we brought to market in the us. It’s the first biologics we brought globally to the world. So we also launched in Japan. It’s interesting. So I came from Amgen, you know, 11 years working with biologics. And it’s not only doing a clinical trial that is important, is also once a product is approved, how you keep generating real world evidence that shows the benefit of the product.

And I think this is a mindset that has been a, a bit new at Leo, is it’s not only like getting a product to the finish line in terms of regulatory and, and, and market access that the team has done in the past very well. Keep generating, you know, real world evidence because this is what, you know, not only regulators, but payers and, and, and doctors and patient want to see is how is the product actually working in, in real life.

Yeah. 

Philip Hemme: Especially, I mean, in this case you’re competing with, with Dupixent. Yes. And there are. Quite strong, quite established as well. 

Christophe Bourdon: Yeah, exactly. I mean, it’s, it’s, it’s been launched, you know, before transa. It’s, it’s like, you know, a very strong brand. And, and, and, and, and my conviction and the data that are being generated show that, you know, actually the more product are available, the more the market is growing, the more the awareness is rising.

And it’s important that we are able to demonstrate like we are doing, that a, actually represent a significant value adding contribution. To some pocket of patients. 

Philip Hemme: And so how do you differentiate? Because I mean, they’re targeting IL 13 and IL four Correct. And we are only IL 13. IL 13. So I guess for certain patients it will fit better.

Christophe Bourdon: So it’s very important that, you know, when you decide to enter such a competitive market that you are able to clearly identify which patient population you are after and then design the go to market more accordingly. And, and, which was super interesting for me. Leo had never launched a biologics in the US and, and, and, and I, if I look, you know, we’ve been able not to really over the last three years, you know, with the medical team, the market access team, the, the marketing team, the sales team, you know, we keep scoring points over there.

Not only with commercial patient, but also in inte integrated delivery networks. This is a benefit of of adri over there. And you know, I’m very encouraged by it. Yeah. 

Philip Hemme: And talking about this also the, you says the innovation wave and bring back biologics. One thing that, and I said that I would beat you one, one thing that that came to mind.

Oh, Leo Pharma is more like dermatology creams. What I’ve seen, or at least what seen is that there’s quite a shift into more complex hematology diseases and that you need a much more fine Yes. Way to address it and much more. Can you talk about this transition? 

Christophe Bourdon: Yes. And the innovation ways? It is a very good question.

So I think in the past, indeed, the only way to bring active ingredients into the body was to use topicals topic. Then, you know, about 20 years ago, people realized actually it’s more about inflammation, bringing like a monoclonal antibody into the body to, to help tackle some, you know, inflammation pathways.

This is where the IL 17 with Porres and now is with IL four, IL 13, and atopic dermatitis. What’s interesting, I think if I look at how we expect the market to grow on one side. I would say there are still unmet need in Resis. There is still a lot of unmet need in atopic dermatitis and we also see that there is a tremendous unmet needs beyond those two disease.

So if I look at dermatology, what’s super interesting is we are talking about thousand and I’m not exaggerating, thousand of disease, whether is still a very unmet need. Are patient, you know, with no approved therapy. No one is looking at the development you know cost for those. I mean basically no approved therapy.

And, and so this is gonna also contribute. We are seeing now, you know, companies like us entering this field saying like, you know, we got an zco, Delucci pja. We can talk about it approving chronic Ann Eczema. In Europe there is one approved therapy. We are talking about millions of patient, you know, that have their hands.

Deeply affected by this disease. They cannot go to work. You know, nurses hairdressers workers. I mean, it’s really impacting millions of people. So what I’m saying to those are the disease that we keep growing on. The root of administration. I think, you know, what’s interesting is I, I come from a background in, in oncology and, and, you know, very different disease, dermatologic disease are very serious disease, but most of them are not life threatening.

We’re talking about chronic condition. So our conviction, and this is what you know, that’s why I brought in the leadership team some very top rank, you know kid dermatologist, KOL, is to say, look, we wanna be the company that offers all the treatment options in the course of the life of our patients.

I want dermatologists to look at Leo not only being specialized in okay. We had these assets that were used in asthma and we found an opportunity in dermatology. And that’s why No, no. We are dermatology committed player and we wanna provide all the options. So in the future you will have patients if they want topicals.

Even orals 

Philip Hemme: can cover the whole journey basically. Exactly. 

Christophe Bourdon: Yeah. And that’s for me, the conviction that this is what’s gonna drive the medical dermatology market moving forward. 

Philip Hemme: I like that. Yeah. And I. I see that you, you mentioned the, the mode of administration for, for biological, for chronic disease is not that simple.

Or like Yes, there’s some challenges as well. So it’s like preloaded pain or syringe 

Christophe Bourdon: pain or auto injector. And how, 

Philip Hemme: how is that for, from a, for, how do the patients react to that? Like it’s 

Christophe Bourdon: I think, you know, the, the, the, I. Efficacy we have in psoriasis, you know, with l seventeens patients are adopting and tolerating those treatment extremely well.

It’s 

Philip Hemme: basically same as for di similar to diabetes. Exactly. 

Christophe Bourdon: Yeah. Yeah. And, and I think, you know, dermatologists are very, very keen to look at safety data because again, in oncology, most of the time, you, you, you, you need to address a life-threatening disease. Side effects. You know, it’s, it comes after the 

Philip Hemme: benefit risk.

Exactly. 

Christophe Bourdon: In dermatology, yes, of course it’s very uncomfortable for patient to live with atopic dermatitis, but you don’t want to have like significant side effect triggered by the treatment to tackle, you know, an atopic dermatitis. So the safety profile of the compound is absolutely essential. That’s good.

Yeah. 

Philip Hemme: And those, those, the, the, the biologic were very fine. Targeted. Exactly. 

Christophe Bourdon: And, and for the safety profile of our companies X and F. 

Philip Hemme: That’s good. 

[00:17:28] STAT6 Protein Degrader, deal with Gilead

Philip Hemme: And can you talk about the, our we or like the, talked a bit about next generation and then there was like 14 the greatest coming with Stat six and you just announced a really big deal with, with Gilead.

Yes. At JPMI was like. Stat six was 250 million upfront total, 1.7 billion. And then you retained the dermatology, basically application. Can you talk a bit more about this and how, how Yeah. How it fits, how the deal fits and how it 

Christophe Bourdon: fits. So, so it’s, it’s interesting. So I think you know, it, first it shows that before I talk about the deal, it talks about, you know, I still see that in the next.

10 to 20 years, there is still a lot of unmet need to be addressed. And, and the, the, the, the promise of Sta six is basically saying, imagine wouldn’t be great if we had an oral once a week instead of having, you know a biologic. So changing the standard of care, atopic dermatitis. So that’s the, the promise we had in-house.

A static six platform being developed by the team here. It’s still a preclinical asset. And the question was for us. Okay. It’s, it’s still very early. And, and we know that, you know, it’s not about bringing the assets to the finish line. What we want to do is make sure that we come fast in a differentiated way to the market to maximize the value of the asset.

And that’s why the idea of partnership, you know, started kind of being there in my brain because I’m like, okay. We are a mid-size player. Of course, I have an interest in bringing innovation, but wouldn’t it be better if we were kind of looking for a partner that had deep pockets and deep expertise in developing, you know, a chemical like an an oral compound.

Which we had never done in the past, but still for us, we being able to retain some value long term. And this is what we have achieved with Gilead. I’m very pleased. You know, with the outcome, I think it’s one of the, if not the, the largest preclinical deal ever, 250 million of upfront, indeed total value of the deal, 1.7 billion.

And for us, you know, as a company in this transformation phase, it’s, it’s also a ticket to the future. I think Gilead has recognized that Leo is. Absolutely a brand that is resonating among, you know, all the dermatologists in 70 countries. So that’s why we have been able to retain the co commercialization rights for the oral compound outside of the us but also we have retained the, the rights to, to, to develop and commercialize the topical version of the stat six.

Back to keeping options open. I think patient want options, dermatologists want option, and this is what we have achieved with SDR. 

Philip Hemme: Why not keeping the US if you already established the US now, 

Christophe Bourdon: but, but I think this is, was, you know, part of the discussion with Gilead also, we also have to, to recognize, you know, what, what, what Gilead does, the strength of the company.

And I, and I think, you know, we we have the rights within the topical for the US and I’m very pleased with that. 

Philip Hemme: I guess it’s a negotiation. 

Christophe Bourdon: I’m very pleased with the outcome. Yeah, and I think, you know, it’s beyond the numbers, couple of things. I think it gave immense proud. Prior, sorry, to the to the r and d organization here 

Philip Hemme: When you posted was like over 130 people involved basically.

Christophe Bourdon: Yeah, we exactly, we, we did a small thank you party for, which 

Philip Hemme: is basically a whole biotech company. Like, 

Christophe Bourdon: yeah. And then for growth, it’s been a lot of expertise and the reality of this transformation, you know, where it’s not been easy, we had to let people go that we are working on this program. And I think, you know, that’s why it was my way of saying, Hey guys, you know.

It’s not my deal. It’s your deal. You, you were the one behind the molecule. And it’s my way of saying thank you, you know, and, and it’s, it’s a little thing, but I think in, in life of biotech, you know, sometime it’s, it’s it’s small world and it’s tough on numbers, but we need always to recognize the people who’ve been behind something like this.

The second thing that the, the deal brought was, you know, three years ago when I went to JPM. I had my old Amgen Connects. They were like, Hey, why, why, why you went to Leo? You know, are you sure? Like, and three years down the road, you know, it’s it’s, it’s, it’s a very different game. And, and, and now with this deal, you know, we want a partner.

Basically our innovation model is about more partnering and in both ways, you know, it’s, it’s just playing to our strengths, but also acknowledging where we don’t have enough deep pocket or we don’t have the expertise. We want a partner. And so. Since we announced a deal like couple of days before JPM, I mean my phone was melting.

You know, it’s not only people congratulating me, they were like, Hey, do you want to partner? Can we partner with you? So it, it has really put Leo in a different league in terms of ability to partner and that was really important for us. Yeah, 

Philip Hemme: that’s good. Yeah. And can you talk a bit about what, what’s quite fascinating also is the dealing STA six in general is, is how much.

Different application it can have, because I think in the deal, I mean, even oncology was meant, I think there there’s lot of potential applications. Yes. Which is, yeah, quite fascinating. I mean, if you get the password and like, yeah. 

Christophe Bourdon: Yeah. I mean, look, I think it’s, it’s very early days and, and this is where part of a, part of the you know, I’m a very curious person.

But you know, curiosity can also be a worse enemy if you’re not able to focus at the end. And I think, you know, yes, in theory you could envisage, you know, application of STA six beyond dermatology, potentially in oncology. Yes. But look, you know, we don’t have the, the, the resources, the time, the, the, the, the, the, the money to, to think about it.

So I think, you know, this is why, again, to really maximize the, the value of the assets, putting it in the hands off. A player like, like Gilead who has more resource and bandwidth and potentially to beyond hematology. It would make a lot of sense. That makes sense. And the 

[00:23:34] Immunology & Inflammation is hot

Philip Hemme: one, one thing I I am also going is, is looking a bit at the bigger picture.

I heard, at least in the last, I know at least in the last years, that that immunology, inflammation general is, is very hot. Hot is thing hot. Not, not only dermatology applications, that’s all application. Can you? Yeah. How, how do you, how do you see it? Like Yeah, just how do you see it 

Christophe Bourdon: fully agree. I think, you know, INI, immunology, inflammation, everyone is you know, rebranding themselves, you know, especially in immunology.

I think it’s, so, I think the potential is, is tremendous, the progress made there. You know, there is a lot of you know, statistics is being one example. I think my focus on this one is we, I think the learning from the transformation is it’s okay to be open to new things. We need to be very firm and clear on our strategy.

Yes, I wanna strengthen and sharpen on our inflammation immunology expertise. I wanna make sure that we do this with a clear line of sight of what are we solving for patients. So I’m looking for real application in medical dermatology and if I see that, you know, things that could have application beyond dermatology, then you know, we would be open to partnering.

I need to be very rigorous with capital allocation. You know, this transformation 

Philip Hemme: have restarted it. 

Christophe Bourdon: Yeah, it, it’s so important because, you know, this is, you know, when you start as a CEO taking a company over with minus 17% ebitda, you know, it’s like dies a day. You need to make sure where, where you need to invest.

It’s not that we didn’t have a large opex basis, we have a billion, a bit less than 1,000,000,002 of a euro to, to invest every year. But it goes fast in r and d. So, yes, I think the temptation to enter broad INI field is very, you know, it’s, it’s a very high temptation. I’m the chief capital allocation manager.

I need to make sure that, like, okay, let’s stay very disciplined. And, and, and that’s why, you know, our partnering model, I think there are companies out there that have, you know, preclinical or early stage INI expertise. I’m open to partner because what then we bring is, you know, more downstream the ability to develop, get the product approved, reimbursed.

Commercialize across, you know, our global platform. 

Philip Hemme: I, I like how it fits into the focus. Yeah. I was also talking more about the field in general of like, I mean, what, what’s, what’s driving that? What, what’s driving really this, this hybrid is there? Yeah, 

Christophe Bourdon: I, I would say probably a mixture of the progress in, in, in, in, in, in, in science.

You know, the opening, the, the opportunity of STA six and that’s like, okay, new opportunities. But also the realization that, you know, all the fields are becoming more crowded. 

Philip Hemme: Like is it a new io basically in your immunooncology that is very crowded, didn’t work that well, and 

Christophe Bourdon: yeah, I think the promise at the beginning are always very exciting.

I think now, yeah, oncology, immuno-oncology is becoming more crowded, more difficult and I think it’s more like a white space and people are saying, okay, INI, we can change the world. I think this is what’s happening at the moment. I’m optimistic about the real scientific progress that can be made.

But again, you know, along the way, you know, some will learn the hard way that, you know, it’s not gonna be a, a walk in the park here. 

Philip Hemme: It’s never, never, ever. Exactly. That’s good. That’s good. But I, I mean, it must be good for two things that, there are two things on the timing that I just raised from everything.

Our discussion so far is. You are in a good timing for having biologicals, the bi transition now more static. Yeah. And the, the hotness of the IINI you are like well positioned even without like doing too much just from No, exactly. Being in the right timing right place. Like, 

Christophe Bourdon: and I think, you know, for a company of our size with exactly to your point, what’s important is I don’t want to have a single bet in one single.

Modality, you know, and, and it’s very important. So yes, we have a foot in, into biologics. Lucit just got approved. It’s a pan JAK inhibitor. We just got approved launch in Germany again, so that’s second leg. Third leg would be STA six. And, and that’s how you know, for me it’s ensuring that the innovation model.

Not only focus only on one modality short term, but like midterm and long term, we have perspective and I think we’ve made very good progress there. 

Philip Hemme: Yeah, that’s good. 

[00:28:26] Pipeline of LEO Pharma & Dealmaking

Philip Hemme: Perfect transition. I, I wanna talk also about the pipeline because you, you have basically, yeah, you had at least two drugs in the filing, two phase three.

Can you, can you expand a bit more on the, on the, on the pipeline? 

Christophe Bourdon: Yeah. So I think, first a philosophy on the pipeline. I think what’s important for a company of our size is when you have a product that works, make sure you really leverage the full potential of the, of the drug. I think this was something in the past, the lesson, I guess.

Yeah, exactly. And, and also looking at the film, and especially because in dermatology, you know, because we have all this disease that are quite close in some diseases, you know, having an IL 13 be on atopic dermatitis, you know, I mean, look what DUP has done. I, it’s, it’s remarkable. So we have a, a, a, a trial ongoing at the moment of ad of the hands for, for tralokinumab.

So I keep generating data of trial. Of course, I have to be rigorous with capital allocation and doing phase three trialing biologics. It, it’s, you know, it’s a heavy investment, so you need to think very carefully on this one. I. The, the big, the big asset, you know, that we’re betting a lot, you know, for the future in the company is tib.

You know, I’m convinced this could be, you know, one of the biggest cross driver of the organization currently chronic Ann Eczema, and we can announce this here, you know, two to three potential, additional indication that we’re seeking. And, and so it’s like go deep, go broad. When you have a winner, like one of my, the previous, board member was saying, and, and this is what we have done with, with capital relocation. Then we have so that’s really the, the bulk of, of our pipeline. And then we have yeah, we haven’t already very advanced. I mean, it’s quite advanced. Yeah. And then we have you know, IL 22 R which has been in licensed from Argen X.

Yeah. We, we, we are looking into this. I think, you know, it’s I 22 R is another mechanism we believe that could play a role in ad I just wanna make sure that, you know. Looking at the results when they will be communicated that we have a very clear value proposition on how to differentiate the asset in the, in this, in this field, because it’s becoming crowded and you need to make sure that you know, you know exactly which patient you’re after.

Okay. Yeah. Okay. So, but 

Philip Hemme: basically you have, you have like registra registration trial or like expanding indications. Yes. And then 

Christophe Bourdon: L 

Philip Hemme: 22 R and then, then, yeah. So basically you don’t have too much in the. Phase 1, 2, 3. 

Christophe Bourdon: I mean, you never have enough. You know? Yes. Every morning I would like to have more, but, but, but joke I said, I think, you know where it has been super important in, in this transformation, it’s not about stuffing, seeing on the shelf, on pipeline saying, I have a big pipeline.

It’s like, okay, what’s our strategy? We wanna go, we wanna make a difference for patient in, in, in, in medical dermatology. We want to be modality agnostic. We have to be mindful of our resources. So, you know, that’s why we open for business. That’s why we are seeking to do bds. That’s why we are looking to acquire new assets.

And yes, I wanna strengthen the, the, the pipeline. And we are working, you know, a lot in that field. I, I would say financially the deal with Gilead is also is helping us. And we have the support from our shareholders. So you come back. You come back in a year, you know, and it’s gonna be a different pipeline.

We’ll talk again. Yeah, 

Philip Hemme: exactly. That’s good. That’s good. I mean, and one, one thing I, I noticed you mentioned Argen XA deal also was, was MORPHOS two? Yes. Large European biotechs like. I think, I mean, it’s, it’s interesting that, and we just before recording, you also talked about like the merger and the Yeah.

The fine line between and the conversation within biopharma and biotech. Can you expand a bit on this? So like, yeah. How, how do you see it, how do you see it specifically for your pharma? You mentioned a bit for partnering, but also how do you see it yourself? Like 

Christophe Bourdon: I think the, first, the the problem that the industry is trying to solve for patients are very complex problems, complex in a sense that, you know, the hurdle of science is super high.

Payers downstream, you know, are becoming more and more picky on what they pay for. Patients are a point of view. So, you know, it’s like, so I think, you know, to solve such complex problem. If you bring more people around the table, diverse point of views, you are in a better place to solve a complex problem.

And I think, you know, the truth is, and then you’ve seen this in the last 20 years, the ecosystem in biotech was in the US and Europe and China has grown so rapidly that you really now have like, you know, a network of companies that have like really breakthrough ideas on how to kind of eventually, you know, bring like the INI field what you described.

I think they also, those companies, you know, realize, okay, once I have an idea, preclinical phase one, then it’s a different set of capabilities you need to kind of bring the asset to the finish line and bring it to patients. And I think, you know what has happened, or my conviction is you don’t need to do everything to maximize the value.

You, I think you, you, you’re better off. You know, you can, yeah, of course you can. Like, like Argen. 

Philip Hemme: I mean it’s, 

Christophe Bourdon: yeah, of course I can, but not everyone is Argen X. Yeah. And, and, and, and, and and also, I’m sure they had some tough times and you know, and of course I come from Amgen and there are play people that are able to do it.

But I think, you know, also is sometimes you also have to acknowledge that you can tap into an innovation faster by partnering. And those biotech can actually bring those innovation faster to patient by partnering with company like Leo. Yeah. So that, that’s really the, the, the, the mindset. You don’t need to own everything and I’m not sure.

Sometime it’s the best use of resources. 

Philip Hemme: And in your case, what’s can be also interesting is to partner one in the indication of the dermatology application. 

Christophe Bourdon: Exactly. 

Philip Hemme: That’s 

Christophe Bourdon: exactly I think lu, a lot of the assets have been developed, you know, for respiratory. Application. I, I’m not gonna start, you know, detailing product to to you know, to outside of dermatology.

We don’t have the bandwidth. We don’t have the resources. So that’s why we need to be pragmatic. Of course. You know, at the end of the day, you need to, you need to have the mindset it takes I’m saying this, you know, you need to have a bit of humility and curiosity to do it. And, you know, I with Tim, you know, we speak quite regularly on the phone.

Philip Hemme: Need to get him on the show as well. 

Christophe Bourdon: Yeah, and, and I think it’s, it’s super important, you know, when we, when we sign with Gilead, you know, I’m, I’m speaking to, to Dan on a regular basis because it’s, it’s not only about you, it’s seeing honestly that you’re not here to kind of steal something or take some more pride.

It’s really seeing, you know, how can two players be better together than, you know, both being separated or individual. 

Philip Hemme: Actually talking about it makes me think about what I’ve, one thing that I’ve seen also especially was, especially not about the European biotech industry, especially Argen or biotech in general, they signed this like, yeah, co-development 50 50 deals.

Yes. Which were quite interesting. Or like big biotech to big biotech. 50 50 we share with thing and we put in common. It’s pretty, 

Christophe Bourdon: yeah. I mean, look, I I’ve been, when I was at Amgen, you know, I was competing the field of myeloma against, you know, j and j Darzalex, you know, it was a general product. Y van was in the board of, of Leo Pharma.

And I think, you know, we have to be Yeah, yeah. You know, very inspiring leaders. And, and, and Jan has always been very clear, you know, partnering, you know, it’s also at some point of time, it’s the most pragmatic things to create value. Look for pharma 250 million, million, sorry, 250 million of upfront from Gilead.

Yeah. It, it’s, it’s, it’s real impact in the transformation journey. 

Philip Hemme: Yeah. No, that’s good. Yeah. I think, I mean, at the end of the day, it’s not partnering. That partnering is about. Finding the right or how and the right, the right timing, the right opportunity, the right partner, the right people. Like it’s 

Christophe Bourdon: and I think the, the, the key thing for me also was the, the learning.

If I look at, you know the successful partnership, it’s a long term commitment. And if you do this with simply a short term, okay, I’m gonna get cash in or cash out. And if you only do it with short term financial interest, it’s, it’s not gonna fly. Because it’s, it’s a real long-term commitment. Like any long-term commitment, there are moment where it’s tougher than others.

So you need to be really, you need to have the support from your board, and you need to have really CO to C, eye to eye conversation. Like, okay, do we agree that we do this long-term? Because the worst thing is to embark to something. And then there’s a, you know, change course in strategy. And then you’re like, you, you don’t have the asset, you don’t have the milestone.

There are the royalties, and then it’s kind of yeah. So long term commitment. 

Philip Hemme: Yeah. Yeah. And that’s where you unlock a lot of value as well, on the long term. Yeah. No, that’s good. It’s a good lesson for Dean Makers listening. Yeah. Listening to us. 

[00:38:20] Finance & IPO

Philip Hemme: Maybe one last thing on the, on the, on the transformation was I, I’m curious on the, you, you mentioned that you’re planning also for IPO.

Yeah. I think that’s, I think it was more 2026. Or you will see, I think 

Christophe Bourdon: open. We are, we will see, we are preparing for, I have a long term plan and the IP is an important milestone. It’s in the hand of the shareholders. Yeah. Our chairman communicated, you know it could be in 2026. We are preparing for that.

I mean there are a lot of you know, 

Philip Hemme: variables around it. I’m curious on the, on the, wise, wise, IPO, especially when you’re owned by a foundation, but I guess also Novo Nordisk have owned by a foundation, but they have some shares that are, that are liquid on the market. 

Christophe Bourdon: Exactly. So, so at the moment, you know, before I joined the, the foundation realized that, you know, they were better off also bringing another shareholder. So we have two shareholders. We have the foundation and the majority shareholders, and Nordic Capital as a minority shareholders. And, and, and, and this is where the foundation and basically agreed with Nordic, you know, that was the best way to, to, to initiate this turnaround of, of the company and the transformation.

They brought in a new chairman. I was brought in as a CEO. And, and the plan here of the IPO is just a milestone to basically have access to, to, to more resources and to drive more innovation and more growth. I think it makes a lot of sense. You know, and the foundation retain still the majority again.

Exactly. And we would be listed in Denmark and then there is, you know, a and b shares. And, and, and this is where it’s pretty common in, in Denmark. I think. You know what I like about the foundation model? So I’ve been here now four years in Denmark. I think this industry deserve long-term perspectives, you know, in the world where there is a lot of, and we can talk about it, you know, question mark, and every day you open the newspaper is like, you know, having a shelter, a majority shelter that has, you know, a sole purpose, which is to think long-term, like very long term.

I think it’s a real luxury in this industry. I’m not surprised that there are, you know, relatively, for the size of Denmark, so many companies. 

Philip Hemme: That’s insane. 

Christophe Bourdon: Exactly. And, and, and then, you know, and also if I look, you know, what, what Novo the ways they have also been able to use all the resource, they have no proceed from all the success into strengthening the long-term ecosystem.

I know, I don’t You’ve been to the bi I, 

Philip Hemme: I, yeah. Y from bi. I was on the show. Yeah. Yeah. 

Christophe Bourdon: You’ve seen this is 

Philip Hemme: like it’s, and the different novel institutions, it’s, yeah. 

Christophe Bourdon: And bi for me, it’s like an example again, you know, of, of, of smart long-term investments that are supported by Yeah, it’s, but, but put in the right way and then creating those bubble of startups.

It’s super inspiring. So Europe should learn from it. We need more. Bye. Hello to. 

Philip Hemme: Yeah, yeah. No, it’s, it’s I, I was impressed. The first time I came to to Coing, I, I did like a, kind of, was a documentary about biotechs in, in, in Denmark or in Coing. And then I realized that Novo was basically almost everywhere from academic financing, academic research to investing with Novo seats and stuff.

I was like crazy. And that was maybe. Six, seven years ago, and now it’s probably even more. But it’s was very interesting to see what, what I liked also as a mother was like. Was not only long-term vision, but also giving back and, and like having the whole ecosystem grow. 

Christophe Bourdon: I, I think the ecosystem is the most important.

You know, they could have basically put money for everyone to join Novo, but no, they have like really help fosters and create this ecosystem, 

Philip Hemme: but they get back from it also, 

Christophe Bourdon: of course, they get back and they country gets back and so on. But what’s very interesting is, you know, it, you know, it’s long term.

It’s long term. And, and I think the BI for me is like, you know, I’ve been working at Zyme before joining. 

Philip Hemme: It’s, it’s on the same set, 

Christophe Bourdon: the same set, and so on. It’s, it’s learning Sometimes the hard way you get better when you fail. You know, in this industry you cannot, you cannot simply serve on successes.

Yeah. You know, I, I mean like, all the leaders have been, you know, really what inspired working from is, is, is basically how when you are facing this kind of either. Clinical, scientific or regulatory like path wall in your face. Okay? How you stay calm as a leader, what you learn from it, and. What’s important is, is what BI is creating is like those small companies.

This is where you learn, you know, this is how you learn from not only mistakes, but you learn from its stuff when the headwinds and so on. And that, I think, creates this ecosystem of entrepreneur that will be, you know, not only curious and open to the world, but will have the, and the courage to really kind of hang in there when it’s tough.

It’s not an easy work. You know, people could say, oh, look at Novo, it’s easy. No, no. It’s super tough business. Look, what do we do at Leo? I, you know it’s not easy every day, and as a leader, you need to learn resilience. You need to learn, you know, how to get back on the horse when it’s when you fall from there.

I can imagine. 

Philip Hemme: Yeah. For you as a good learning as well, I guess. 

Christophe Bourdon: Yeah. It’s a, it’s, there is, yeah. You don’t, you don’t drive innovation by selling on a blue sky. There is not someone hanging you like, okay, here’s 215 million. Here is like, okay, is you gonna sell a billion same year? Yeah, no, it’s super tough.

Philip Hemme: Yeah, 

Christophe Bourdon: yeah, 

Philip Hemme: yeah. It’s, yeah. And I mean, and on the show quite a lot of people talk also like, and the important of luck, which I think there’s a part like in, I mean, of course 

Christophe Bourdon: it, it, it, but you need to create an environment where luck and pops up. Because they stuck in, because otherwise luck can easily disappear with, you know, two bureaucratic governance or where culture of fear, you know, luck is how to bring the little bubble to a bigger bubble.

To even bigger bubble. But a lot of companies putting so many filters that basically you, you eradicate luck by wanting to control everything. So you need to let it go. You need to trust. And then luck translate into value. I like that. I like that. 

[00:45:03] Living & working in 8 countries

Philip Hemme: A last a bit more, I mean, personal question or personal background. You talk quite a lot about your personal lessons already, but one thing that that struck me as well is, like me, you’re French German. Yes. And then you’ve lived in many countries in eight in and lived in work in eight countries. Yes.

Crazy and crazy. Especially, I mean, crazy. Especially in Europe, Japan, US So also on, on different continents. Can you talk quickly on what were some of your, of your lessons there? Like how did you manage? 

Christophe Bourdon: Yeah. So first I, I think you know, I mean like you are same French German. I was born in seventies and I remember in the eighties, you know, going at school, and people in the France.

So I grew up in France, but my. Friends were like, do you like your German grandparents as much as your French grandparents? I’m like, what? What kind of question is that? But it’s, it’s so very early you learn that cliche, I don’t like cliche. And the world is full of cliche and a big version for that. And was a question, do you feel more French or more German?

Philip Hemme: But I had this, 

Christophe Bourdon: so when the ultimate test is football, then I have, I like both. But I have to say, I’m more like, no. See, I like a 

Philip Hemme: good game. 

Christophe Bourdon: That’s too politically correct. I, 

Philip Hemme: and I’m, I’m, so, I really feel that way. Actually when I watch French Germany, I’m like, 

Christophe Bourdon: no, 

Philip Hemme: I want 

Christophe Bourdon: the best to work. No. Yeah. I’m, I’m for the French team.

Sorry. Okay. It’s, but I travel with my German passport because of global entry to the us. So I’m very pragmatic. But I, I made sure that in Copenhagen, you know, I know the both ambassadors. Okay. So that’s just to maintain, you know, kind of, so that’s one. I think the, the thing that I personally, I I was very lucky to after doing my my business school, you know, I was like doing the vu, like working for instead of French military service, working for a French company, won work for Airbus in Japan.

At that time, you know, like arriving in Japan, 20 years old, there was like no internet, no no phone. I didn’t speak the German language at that time. And it’s really, you know, the power of listening, the power of observing. I. Also the power of silence. You know, after, in the US it’s a different culture, but, but in Japan, you, you learn by also simply saying, not talking and simply observing.

And then along the way for me, you, you always, I always pick something good from, you know, I lived in Norway, I live in Austria, I live in Germany, I live in Switzerland. And I think you, no cliche, there is always something to learn. The US was a tremendous experience. I really like it. Three years I lived there, was, was really kind of, you know, was that Amgen, like Amgen to la Yeah, exactly.

Live in LA in commute. Two, two, 2000 Oaks. Yeah. And then now I fell in love with Denmark now four years. 

Philip Hemme: It’s good. It’s okay. Love it. Love it. That’s cool. 

[00:48:17] Quickfire

Philip Hemme: Maybe a last. We have not much time left. I mean, we could talk forever. So it’s the last part, just a few quick question. You answer like one sentence?

Yes. Quick fire. Who is one of your biopharma heroes? 

Christophe Bourdon: Mag guy there? 

Philip Hemme: One of your favorite biotech book? 

Christophe Bourdon: I don’t read biotech book or 

Philip Hemme: science 

Christophe Bourdon: book maybe. I think, you know, original species Darwin. 

Philip Hemme: One advice to young life science professionals who want to become CEO of a biopharma dream every day.

That’s a good one. One mistake you made in the past 12 months. Not learning Danish.

And the last, last one, a new habit you adopted recently. Learning Danish now 

Christophe Bourdon: oh one. No, I, I have to admit, the last 12 months I’ve been pretty now I think I stay, I, I, I read like every night before going to bed. I don’t bring my phone to the room and I, I read, you know, a couple of pages of like, mainly like history or scientific science fiction books.

And I think, you know, the, the, as a c you need to, to unplug and, and that’s, that’s super important for me. Great way to finish. Thank you Philip. Thanks. Yes.

Philip Hemme: I’m impressed by what Christophe was able to achieve in such a short period of time and how he did it. I was also impressed by his openness and his multicultural path. If you’ve also enjoyed this episode, please hit the like follow review button. Any of these actions would help a lot to give access to more people to the show.

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