We’re in San Sebastián 🇪🇸 with one of the top VCs in Europe, Christina Takke from V-Bio Ventures.
We talk about her path to get to the top and the benefits of gender diversity for both investing and European biotech as a whole. We also talk about her investment in Argenx when it was only three employees and the venture creation had dropped since 2022.
💎 ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Christina co-founded V-Bio Ventures in 2015 and is now the Managing Partner. Before this, she was a leader in the European Venture Capital world with 15 years of experience. She has been a partner at Forbion Capital Partners where she led many successful investments in biopharma and pharma companies.
🔗 LINKS MENTIONED
- Lean years for company creation in Europe? – BioVox, Sep 2023 – https://biovox.eu/lean-years-for-company-creation-in-europe/
- Agnete Fredriksen, Nykode | Being one of the top 50 women in 🇪🇺 bio | E07 – https://flot.bio/episode/agnete-fredriksen-top-women-bio/
Transcript
[00:00:00] Intro
Christina Takke: When we started FIBA Adventures, we were diverse from the beginning. What you realize is that when you have different views, you start a discussion with each other. You look at investment opportunities from different angles. If
Philip Hemme: you isolate the gender, do you think there’s a correlation? We need more role models.
Christina Takke: Yeah, you need to show that it’s feasible. I think role models, being a woman and setting up a fund is one role model. Setting up a company is another one. The moment you have these, these showcases, these role models, people think, oh, it’s feasible. I can do that.
Philip Hemme: Sander Vandeventer mentioned, oh yeah, we invested in Argenix when there were like five people.
By preparing this interview, I realized you were the one. It’s
true. And I think there were even three people. Oh, three people.
Bienvenue to a new episode. I’m your host, Philippe. And on this show, I’m interviewing the best Europeans in biotech. to help you grow. There are only very few top women VCs in European biotech.
There is Kate from SV, Raphael from Jato, Regina from Wellington, Henriette from Sofidora, and there is Christina from VBioVentures. So while I was in San Sebastian, I caught up with her. We talked about her path to get there, but also the benefits of gender diversity for biotech investing, but also for the biotech ecosystem in Europe as a whole.
Uh, we also talked about her investment in Argenyx when they were three people. We talked about the venture creation drop since 2022. So here’s my conversation with Christina. And if you’re enjoying it, please hit the like and follow button. Hi, welcome to the show Christina.
Christina Takke: Well, thank you for having me.
It’s a pleasure to be with you today.
Philip Hemme: Great. I made you discover this part of the beach. What’s up, Sebastian?
Christina Takke: Well, I’m very happy you took me here. I was inside in the conference the whole day. So it’s an amazing view and it’s a good spirit for, uh, well,
Philip Hemme: being here. It’s really cool to biotech and beach, so yeah.
Christina Takke: It’s a work life balance. I think it’s quite a good one, yeah.
[00:02:03] Top VC woman in biotech
Philip Hemme: It’s a good title to show. Um, so I want to start with say, the woman in biotech, I think you are, you are one of the very few managing partners of a European biotech fund, and especially one of the very few who have founded a biotech fund. So I’m wondering, can you just share how it feels to be in that position, having that experience?
Christina Takke: Well, thank you for asking. It’s, it was an interesting ride the last eight years, and Maybe going a little bit back in history. When I started in the industry, I joined Airbnb bank, which then became four billion. So I was really in a luxury position to become partner with four million capital partner, a fantastic friend, which really taught me.
So the, the beginning of the business, which also put me in the position to do what I’ve done then after my position at four billion. So that was 2014 when I got a chance together with my co founder, Willem Bruckert to set up fee by ventures. It’s, it’s really feeling like. Going back to some smaller enterprises where you’re responsible for everything from, from the beginning, you’re responsible for setting up the entity, setting up the name and the brand, and also, well, defining your strategy going forward.
That’s one, but also then executing on it because in the beginning, 2015, we were, well, the two of us as the co founder, we had two partners on board. So we were the four of us doing everything and that. gives you quite some satisfaction and also excitement in creating something new.
Philip Hemme: And we will get to, to the bio.
I mean, you had some, some good news and you, you, you close the second fund. I mean, we’ll talk about that. Um, wondering on, on the, if we stick to that topic of let’s say women in VC, I saw one of your, or you, you, you said, or you wrote that diverse teams lead to better decision maker head, hence better business successes.
Can you like, uh, elaborate a bit on it and what’s, if, or what’s, what’s kind of the, I mean, it seems a bit obvious, but it’s not necessarily wrong. And what’s the evidence? Yeah,
Christina Takke: what, what I can explain from our own experience when we started Feeble Adventures, we were diverse from the beginning. Well, it was, was myself.
I have that background in, in, in human healthcare, in biotech. being a woman and started up with Willem Broekert. He comes from the green biotech, being a man. So from the get go, we had different views on, on, on, on, on things. And what you, what you realize that when you have different views, you started discussion with each other.
You look at investment opportunity opportunities from different angles. And as long as you keep an open dialogue and, and, and a transparent relationship, I think that that helps because you’re not. Stuck with your own opinion. So the moment you have different views around the table, you express them and you listen to each other, then you take, I think, better decisions because you have more aspects taken into account.
And that comes from background that comes from, well, the education. Um, and that’s what FIBA, I think along, along the way, because you need to have, look at all the angles of an investment opportunity.
Philip Hemme: You think from, I mean. from the let’s say, just if you isolate the gender, you think especially from the investing point of view, you will have like, typically different views or you will see it, you will look at different things, the you think there’s a correlation.
Christina Takke: But what is known is that men and female, they communicate differently. And of course, if somebody else communicate with you, you have a different perception of it. And sometimes what you see, you have this confirmatory bias, you talk to somebody who is like you and you are Uh, engage with that person and you’re convinced.
But if somebody with a different background listens to that conversation, maybe that person picks up different items in that conversation. So I think that’s important that the way you communicate and the way you perceive communication.
Philip Hemme: Yeah, I like that. I mean, we, I talked with, uh, by each of, I mean, you know, on the show and we talked quite a lot about, about this as well.
And, and what was interesting with her was saying, okay, it’s, it’s not only fair. But she was really making the business case, basically. Yeah. In my, in the team, or at the immunocore, bring more diversity in gender diversity, and also, um, race diversity. Just leads to better decision and to better business. So, that’s also partly better.
I quite like the, like, she was very, like, frank about it, very direct, like, I’m doing it for business, mostly, and not about, just about fair. Uh, and sounds like from what you’re saying, it’s, it’s also going in a similar direction.
Christina Takke: For us, it’s, it’s a consequence thereof. I think it leads to better business, but it needs something you would like to engage.
You need to be open to, to accommodate different views and you need to be open to accommodate different characters in your team. It’s, it’s not only about, well, getting these people, but also retaining them and creating a platform where people feel welcomed and accommodate. But I’m with, with her, it, it leads to better business decisions and we should in the industry drive for more input and diversity.
Philip Hemme: That’s great. I think you are. Let’s
Christina Takke: see. It will stay dry. Don’t worry.
Philip Hemme: Um, I mean, and we need more, I think role models. I think that’s also why I’m trying to get some more. gender diversity also in the speakers I have and I think role modeling and people listening I think is super important as well.
Christina Takke: Yeah, you need to show that it’s feasible.
I think role models. Being a woman and setting up a fund is one role model. Being a woman, setting up a company is another one. The moment you have these, these showcase, these role models, people think, Oh, it’s feasible. I can do that. And it’s, and it’s always exciting. And it’s a bit nerve cracking when you set up a new fund, you don’t know if it will happen.
Of course, you have the conviction, you’re good, you can do it. But really to jump on something, we, we, We need to tell people that’s good to jump and mostly land on your feet and if you’re not landing on your feet you have Your plan B, but people need to dare to do that. And that’s something we’re working on
Philip Hemme: Especially I guess in Europe where we tend to be a bit less risk taking and I think and actually I’d like this also your Your background.
[00:08:36] European background
Philip Hemme: I mean you’re very European background. Yeah, German You just mentioned, you studied in France, now you work, you live in Amsterdam, you work a lot in Belgium, I mean, I quite like this part as well, and I think, can you explain a bit on this, on like, how it benefits you, say on a day to day? To be so like European.
Christina Takke: But it, it benefits me because people are different. The German is different than the Dutch or the Belgian. And I’m not saying it’s, it’s really the nationality, I think, but all our history and education, uh, brings us where we are. And also when coming back to communication, it brings us how we perceive communication, how we communicate, how we give feedback.
And there’s nice literature around you, like the culture map. It’s a really nice book where you realize that how people react. It’s. sometimes individual, but always also how they were educated. And the moment we are aware of that, we can handle it and we can make it, take it as a positive and also deal with it.
So maybe because I’ve lived in different countries, which from an American perspective, probably look all the same. They are not well, the French is different from the Dutch and the Belgium. And maybe because I’m home in more than people also will forgive me a bit, but, um, It helps to open your eyes.
Philip Hemme: That’s good. I mean, I would 100 percent agree or something kind of French German background and living and traveling and working in different countries. I think also, I mean, from what you said, I mean, especially in your position investment. I mean, obviously you’re very tight to Belgium and VIB, but you also invest your pride and you look for co investors, your pride and talents.
I mean, especially in your world, you’re very open, so I guess. It helps her to understand the other people, but what I’ve also maybe it’s like, what I’d quite like to do is to be able to not only communicate, but like adapt really to the person in front of you, depending on the, I mean, to the nationality or personality, like how, yeah.
I don’t know how, and I can’t help, yeah, basically, I, I guess.
Christina Takke: No, I think it’s true. When we set up FIBO Ventures, well, we said one thing to our initial investors, look, we are located in Belgium. We have a strong foothold here. We would like to create companies in Belgium. But in the beginning, our idea was to bring international investors to our companies.
Speaker 4: And that
Christina Takke: was something we, well, we found very important and we managed in the first fund to do so. But that means we need to go out of Belgium. We need to broaden our network and work with people in other jurisdictions and in other countries. Yeah,
Philip Hemme: that’s good. Maybe a last, last kind of point on this topic.
Uh, I had Aliette Felixsen from ICODE on the show and we talked quite a lot about this and she was very open also on like a bit deep on like her experiences as a woman founder and, and what worked and what didn’t work and some challenges and In short, she said one thing like, basically, don’t go to the party, like, just skip the party.
It’s basically better. Um, and actually what I remember with you, I think we were, we had a conference in Basel or something. And I don’t remember exactly where, but we went then with some, a group and we had a drink and you were like super chilled and open about it. I don’t know, it stuck to my mind. Was it also your experience or how do you approach this kind of situation?
Like
Christina Takke: how you mean the not, not going to the, to the party?
Philip Hemme: Yeah. Like, I mean, she was saying not going to party because basically at the party at some point, some, it can, as a woman can be a bit like not comfortable. Basically you were, I mean, at least my experience was,
Christina Takke: well, I would never experienced that. I have to say, I think the social aspect of any business is an important one.
Okay. What you what you realize in these interactions outside of the cubicles one to one meetings, you build trust and you build a relationship. And of course, well, everybody needs to respect, um, uh, boundaries where nobody should cross these boundaries. I haven’t seen them, uh, in our area. But I think to, to interact with people on different levels is important because when we invest in companies, we invest into people.
So seeing these people outside of the cubicle, outside of the lab, it’s an important part, how people, uh, uh, react on an, in different situations and also, well, how you will get that second layer of trust into, into somebody into a company, it’s, it’s super important. So I think these social events. I may be often under.
estimated by the female colleagues, because it’s in the early days of why do you work, do it good, stay at your desk, and then then you will be promoted. But that’s not how it works. It’s multi layered our business. And it’s a lot of people business here.
Philip Hemme: Especially as an investor, I guess.
Christina Takke: Of course, you shouldn’t exaggerate and you should respect the boundaries.
Philip Hemme: It’s good to hear like, more positive experience.
[00:13:49] Investing in Argenx at the start
Philip Hemme: You, you mentioned, you mentioned Fabian, and you started there, you became partner and Sander when they went was, was, uh, one of the, I think co-founder of Fabian, I think, uh, was on the show. And he mentioned, oh yeah, we, we invested in Argenyx when there were like five people and then by preparing this interview, I realized you were the one.
Christina Takke: That’s, that’s true. I think it were even three people.
Philip Hemme: No, that’s, that’s true. You were the one leading and you were on the board. Can you tell a bit about the story of how the investment came about? Came to be, uh, you came to invest and then like.
Christina Takke: Yeah, when, when basically Tim Torsenhans, the three founders of Agenix, they were out fundraising and I think it was 2008.
It was just when 4Wheel, when we had our, well, 4Wheel had the first closing of the, of the 4Wheel fund and it, it wasn’t an easy time to, to raise funds. There were two lead, two seed investors already in the, in the company. So they had a little bit of money to go out. But then at the time it was four beyond taking the lead and putting out a term sheet for, for an a round.
And we went around the, the, the block to, to, to, to look for core investors. At the end, there was a nice syndicate, uh, LSP joined, and then we got some Belgian investors. Uh, to the table.
Philip Hemme: How much was the round at that time?
Christina Takke: I think the initial a round was like 12 million euros. Okay. So not, not that much, much was sufficient to prove the technology.
Yeah. And of course there were mistakes baked or the errors made. Well, not all the programs we started in the beginning, well, we’re still alive after a few years. What I have to say with this team, and it, it, it comes to diversity, of course they were all male, but they were different in character. So the three of them, they always had to discuss among themselves before they take a decision, and I’m pretty sure there were tough discussions, pointing to the time, to the theme of diversity.
They come out stronger with it. Um, and it was a fun time. I think I learned a lot, uh, by taking the journey. We had that A round, we had then the B round, pre IPO, then the IPO on Neuronext first, which also was a long discussion. Shall you go direct to Nasdaq or Neuronext first? At the time, you always take the decisions with the knowledge you have at the time and with the data you have at the time.
I think that was decided. It took some time then to go to NASDAQ. And then this was also time when I left the board. That was the time when FIBAIO came up. Uh, much of my time was quite there. And also the. At Genyx grew, they needed different input on the, on the board, the companies you’re involved,
Philip Hemme: it’s natural, but it,
Christina Takke: it, it always has my heart to it.
I have to say,
Philip Hemme: and I, and now it’s crazy. I mean, 20 billion company, I mean, massive success story.
Christina Takke: It’s also, but it’s also very much from the beginning, the strategy, keeping your products close to your chest, developing them as far as you can. And that was what Genyx has done. They brought products to the market that follow on products to the market.
And also in the past, we were always open in, well, what can they do, what a partner can do, looking outside, working with academics to insource new ideas.
Philip Hemme: And especially, I mean, advancing, I mean, the balance between developing your own platform and your assets. I think they were really good.
Christina Takke: When we’re speaking about role models, there are a few role models.
The model is a role model, but also the management team is a role model. But also at some point in time, people from the management team said, well, this becomes too big for me. I’m better performing in smaller companies like Twasten Dryer. We were super happy that he joined one of our startup companies, which is Agomab in the early days.
So there you see this cross fertilization allowing people to develop, even if it’s outside your own organization. That’s something where the industry and the, well, the ecosystem around Benelux, I think we are growing there. Yeah. It’s a, it’s a good thing.
Philip Hemme: I had, uh, I had Edwin from Uplinks, and he mentioned this, I think he mentioned that over 10 people from his management team at Uplinks are now like running or founding biotech companies, not only in the Beledix, I guess, but let’s say Europe, but still like, uh, We’re,
Christina Takke: we’re one lucky of them where we have Cedric Verweyken from, uh, from, uh, Applinks who’s our CEO of Comfort Therapeutics.
That’s exactly what you need. They have such a learning curve, such an experience within these larger organizations, but at some point in time, it’s either because of the structure, because of their own character, they would like to do something else and more than welcome to, uh, to join our smaller companies.
I think
Philip Hemme: it’s totally normal. I mean, it’s funny because in, I feel like in biotech, it’s always seen a bit differently, but in tech. It’s pretty normal, like, almost encouraged if you are, let’s say, whatever, Google or some startups and you want to go on to found something, for example, usually the team will support you.
And I mean, for all the reasons you mentioned, but, uh, yeah, I think it’s, it’s one of the underestimated thing in Europe, how many compared to, let’s say, 10 years ago, how much more talent pool and founder pool and is on top of the money, which is maybe more visible. But, uh,
Christina Takke: It’s also one of the experts, at least that we buy, we had at the beginning while we creating new companies, but that means we also need to create the new management teams because every CEO was a first time CEO at some point in time.
So what we realize the moment you give people, of course, people need to be the right character and have the right ambition, but you need to also give them the responsibility to grow. It’s sometimes I have the example, the chance, sometimes I have the examples. It’s like a snowball sitting on the top of a hill.
If that snowball doesn’t roll, it doesn’t become bigger. So you need to roll these snowballs in order to become bigger and, and get to the gravity to become the next serial entrepreneur and serial CEO.
Philip Hemme: I like that. I like that. I like your answer, yeah. Um, and, I guess on the, I mean, and you proved it was Argenyx, and I guess on Argenyx also, for you personally to set up vBio, I guess was a great track record, basically.
Yeah. I guess the return is not public, how much she really made on the return, but I can imagine she invested in a, whatever, 12 million Series A.
Christina Takke: I guess you need to ask for Orion for that. I
Philip Hemme: can just imagine, I don’t know when exactly, when was the IPO, how much they raised, but I can imagine it’s a very, very nice multiple.
Awesome.
Christina Takke: It’s a nice success story and I think it’s a, it’s, it’s a good return for all the investors in there. Yeah.
[00:20:26] V-Bio story
Philip Hemme: But I mean, for you then, I mean, as a, it is a perfect transition to, to V bio. Um, I mean, you, you started it and you think VVIB was one of the LPs?
Christina Takke: Yeah. VB is our partner and a smaller LP in the front, the smaller
Philip Hemme: lp.
Okay. Can you tell the story, the creation story of like what made you jump ,
Christina Takke: um, AG Genix is, is, is. Almost a little spouting point to Fibi because through Genics, which was, well, it’s a Dutch company also the ib.
Philip Hemme: Yeah.
Christina Takke: But so Genics is, bell is a Dutch company with a big footprint in Belgium. So all the activities are there and being on the board is, my network in, in Belgium also grew and that’s where maybe I came into the picture for that fund.
So it was definitely something driven by the VIB. It was Johan K’s vision to have a A fund, which is closely affiliated, but. An independent fund works in the, in the, in the ecosystem to helps to translate or transfer the science from the academic into, into industry, into startup companies. And there is a bit of history of the fund, but at some point in time, it was really, they, they, they contacted a recruiter to find management team, which wasn’t seemingly that easy to find management team for a new fund.
And when they called, I still tell the story in the beginning. I said, no, I’m fine. I’m perfectly fine with four. We, and we’re just growing. And then more in a second thought, I say, well, why not? We always tell our, our scientists, if you have an idea and if you have a vision, you need to jump. And then I thought a third day, well, why not now?
I’ve, I’ve learned so much the last years within ABNMR and 4B on this is a chance to put it into practice to, to, to everything what you’ve learned to well, make your own mistakes, build your own organization. And going back to earlier stages. That was, I think the combination with attracted me. That’s where we at Vipaio are good at.
That’s where we can help the most and have the most impact too. And having a research organization who, who wants to collaborate. I think that’s also important. And in, in the first five, eight years now, we learned from each other. I always tell that, well, because we, we’ve done things as we thought we would do.
But then hearing how a technology transfer organization. Uh deal with that what challenges they have and what is important to them. It’s important that it fits both parties Not only the investors but also the the tto’s
Philip Hemme: nice It’s I mean, yeah, I didn’t know the story. I mean, it sounds like vib really kind of seeded
Christina Takke: Well, it was, it was the vision of EurekaDune to have this, this, this fund.
And of course there needed to be more, there needs to, needed to be other investors. You, of course, had the support of the European Investment Fund in the first fund. We had some local, uh, public money. And then at the end, Willem and I, the management team, I think that was the combination you needed. You had the proprietary deal flow, you had the investors, and you had the management team.
And then that was the starting point where you could grow.
Philip Hemme: Yeah, nice. Actually, as a, um, and now, I mean, even for, for the audience, I mean, you closed the, the second fund, finally closing 110 million euros, March 2022. That’s amazing. I mean,
Christina Takke: and we’re now investing 100
Philip Hemme: million bar, I guess it’s
Christina Takke: super. Yeah. And we’re now investing out of that fund and we’re, we just announced that.
Our last, well, the last investment, not our last investment, it’s Flinders Therapeutics and we’re now looking to add more investments to that fund.
Philip Hemme: And I saw Shelly Maggotson join, I knew her from, from Get Data. That was also,
Christina Takke: that was also a nice fit when you look at, well, diversity comes back in our conversation, I think, multiple times.
When. And she was CEO for our portfolio companies where we out the lead, the lead asset, and that it was really what is her next step in the, in the
Philip Hemme: organization? gta?
Christina Takke: No, she,
Philip Hemme: she was,
Christina Takke: well she, she was with MES before then, went to Gata, then she did a built to buy exit, then she joined one of our portfolio companies and became CEO there.
When that company had out license the, it was a single asset company, the lead asset. And it was really the question, what is the next step in her career? And when we spoke and I asked, well, did you ever think about venture capital? And she’s like, wow, actually I didn’t. And then we, we, we spoke, she got to get to know my, my, my, my colleagues.
Um, and realized that this really has added value to have. Well, a different background in the team. She has a financial education, but it’s in the biotech industry for the last 25 years. So we were really happy to, well, to get that diversity brought into.
Philip Hemme: That’s amazing. Um, that’s great.
[00:25:09] Tech transfer
Philip Hemme: Um, on the, um, actually on the, on the, on the VIB and on the, on tech transfer at a bit more at large in the past, I think 10 years, every time I talk with people about tech transfer, like 90 percent of the time is very negative, like, like very negative, at least in Europe.
And then the only thing that I see when I hear positive thing is VIB, basically, almost like a bit in the UK, a bit, Sarah in France, a bit better. When I hear about the U. S. tech transfer, well, some of it is very positive, like Stanford is like, wow, it was a dream working with them compared to others, but VIB, I hear very good things, and I mean, from, I understand also from our discussion.
Uh, and they seem very focused also on tech transfer as an institution. Can you talk a bit more on like what they understood, why, why are they recognized so well for tech transfer, why it works? So,
Christina Takke: well, first of all, of course, they have a, they have quite some history. They were set up in 95. So we now, well, approaching quite some decennial experience.
The organization is a professional organization. There are people with IP backgrounds. There are people with a business development background, people in company creation. So this experience and having seen a lot helps of course, in negotiation, because these people understand, well, everything is different, but you have some boundaries where you know, well, this is what the investor need, and this is what the TTO needs.
I guess the difference is especially well, where we had discussions with the German tech transfer organizations. It’s. You need to find a structure that enables the new created company to raise funds so that you align all the interests. And that’s something which is different from a one off business deal where you try to get as much upfront as you as you want, which doesn’t work for the startup companies.
And this is something the mentality of at least VAB and some of the other tech trusts, they understood that. And it’s a give and take. So we also need to establish the structure there. If it’s successful, also the tech transfer organization make the money. Because if that doesn’t work, well, you cut up your, your, your, your, your line in the beginning.
So it’s, I think it’s also again, coming back to the trust that you need to sit together, look at the individual company or the technology, what sometimes you have patterns, sometimes you don’t, and how you deal with that.
Philip Hemme: Okay. Can you be a bit more specific on the. On the deal terms, they specifically look because of what they, how the structure that is, because one thing I hear quite often is a typical tech transfer academia thing is like, they think that the idea is worth like way too much and they want whatever like high two digits percentage and realistically it’s just doesn’t match what a VC or founders would invest in.
Christina Takke: It comes back to experience a world where I can’t disclose any deal terms because they also vary from deal to deal. But what we can say is when the VAB comes in, they often bring their know how, their IP as an in kind contribution. So they are part of the shareholding, but part of the founding shareholder base, which then aligns the shareholders and the investors.
Um, And also in terms of real, uh, relative, or how do you say this, realistic view on valuation. We are all interested to be able to raise the next round. If we are, have irrealistic expectations or the price is too high, well, we got stuck in the next financing round.
Speaker 4: So
Christina Takke: that’s the experience which comes through us as an investor, but also through them having lived through a couple of spin outs that, you know, appropriately, if you start up a company with a target and you still need to screen that, you know, approximately, well, once you have your candidate, what does the market paying for that?
And you need to make your calculations,
Philip Hemme: you know, the range and, you know, It sounds like, I mean, it comes down to one of another topic from the discussion. It comes down to people and to the experience. Yeah, I like that. And it sounds like you can really speak similar language. Obviously you have some different interests, but you know, each other’s interest.
And what I hear sometimes is like, Oh, forget it. We cannot even talk with them. Like, and I heard that so many, many times and like, it’s painful or like it took two years to get the IP out, et cetera, et cetera. And like,
Christina Takke: yeah. I think it’s also important that you speak to the people that can take the decisions.
And sometimes I get the feeling that in other jurisdictions in Germany, that’s the problem. You have TTOs, but they’re not empowered to close the deals. So you need to go through all hierarchy, getting all your signature on something. And there are people, deciding on if we’re too far from the business without this feeling is, is this valuation a right one?
Is that too little, too big? That I think if I hope that if other TTOs are empowered more to, to really close the deals and take responsibility, that that would be an easier discussion, but maybe I’m too naive.
Philip Hemme: If people at TTO are listening. Yeah. I mean, My hope. I mean, it’s a, it’s a crucial element in biotech.
I mean, the tech transfer in general.
Christina Takke: And it does make sense that the conrector of a university needs to sign off of deals. It’s not his business. It’s not his expertise. So they did these organizations to hire people with expertise and well, the foot on the ground.
Philip Hemme: Yeah. I’m curious also on the similar topic, also people related I’ve seen, especially in some of the deals you made some, some professors At the AB seem quite entrepreneurial as a professor deep down.
I mean, this play a big role as well. Can you expand a bit on this? I’m like, if, is it true? Is it true that the professors are more entrepreneurial than in, let’s say, in other institutes? And where it comes from? I
Christina Takke: think it’s also philosophy from the VIB from the get go. They were set up as a translational Institute.
So the, these, the professors and the research groups that are part of the VIB, they get re evaluated every five years. And we were re evaluated is on publications in high impact journals on third party income and on well, spin outs, patterns, some sort of valorization of their science. So there is a mindset of, well, we do science for the better good, but you also need to bring back something to the society and maybe that incentivize people a bit more, of course, there are professors more than others.
Some research leans itself more for spin outs. Well, we are very happy with our co founder, Professor Jens Steyrt, who was co founder of AppLinks, but also on comfort therapeutics and has more ideas to come. Some of them are more proliferative than others.
Philip Hemme: I guess there’s a luck factor as everything in research, I guess, because that’s, that’s, that’s good to hear.
Because it’s, I think that’s one thing, I mean, I had on the show Jens Nielsen from Yeah. From, uh, Now, DII, X, Chalmers, DTU, and he, I mean, he’s been out, I don’t know how many, I think close to 10 companies, but when I think in Europe, it’s always like harder to find some of these examples of academics versus especially him, or like when I studied or when I lived in Boston, I mean, in Boston is crazy, the scientists, and like, I was amazed how entrepreneurial they were, like, almost more than me, like I think we could have more of this.
Christina Takke: Definitely. And I think also what, what you see sometimes you have these professors, they want to hold on to everything and they want to continue exercise control. And that’s something which we have some troubles to when we set up companies, we’ll say, well, you’re good as a scientific founder. You have done phenomenal research, which now will be translated into a commercial organization, but therefore you need commercial people to take it on.
And then this will. These professors also need to have the trust in the new management team because they’re not the management team. They need to step, take a step back, become part of the scientific advisory board, clinical advisory board, still contribute, but not on a day to day slide management.
Philip Hemme: And I guess the same thing to understand also what investors want, what’s the people just understanding the bigger picture.
I think that’s good. Well, it’s getting, um, let’s see, it’s getting wet, it’s getting wet. So yeah, the, maybe on, on, on the bio specifically, I mean, what I, what I quite like was if, I mean, what you mentioned, like, obviously you are tied to VIB, but you also like expand beyond. And I think you’re one of the best now, really like really focused on early stage.
I mean, biogeneration is another one tied to phobia and Kerma and friends. Um, I want to say, and then I see the other trend is like some bigger VCs who also go into venture creation now and kind of was, was trendy. Let’s say in the past few years, let’s say, especially in the U S the flagship model of third work.
How do you see that? How, how do you like yourself in this map?
Christina Takke: How I see myself or Fibario that’s definitely on the company creation side, on the early, on the early steps of these companies where we help can contribute and then also bring our network to the companies. To then allow them to grow what I see with the bigger funds.
They also do some company creation. My feeling is that you cannot. Invest these large amounts where they have raised all in company creation. They will do a few, but they will also need to look at the series B, the phase two companies where they can in one go invest 20 million because otherwise you will end up with a portfolio of 45 companies.
So there will be a shift and what you can do with a certain size of the fund. Our view is that you have an optimum size of the fund for the early stages. If you raise funds like 500 million, you need to do later stage investments.
Philip Hemme: Or you do like an arch model where you put 500 million in one company.
Christina Takke: Yeah. Maybe then the diversity or the,
Philip Hemme: well,
Christina Takke: that’s
Philip Hemme: a different game. It’s
Christina Takke: a different game. And
Philip Hemme: I guess that’s not even possible in Europe anyway.
[00:35:44] Company creation drop
Philip Hemme: So, um, maybe on the, on the last, I’d say on the last topic on the, you had a very nice blog post. Actually, it’s nice. You write blog posts. There’s not that many, right?
Like inside a blog post, which is great. And one blog post was basically about. Company creation numbers drop completely. I didn’t realize it dropped that much. I will show the figure I was basically in. What was it like, uh, I have it here, but around 100 company creation per year in Europe per year. And then 2022 went like down completely in 2023, I guess, even lower in 2024.
We’ll see. Um, it’s like, yeah,
Christina Takke: it’s good. You referring to that. And of course, well, we need to see how these numbers evolve. Yeah. Because what we have done, we’ve used PCI Q for, for our database. So we looked at years, years where the companies were founded. And of course, well, this is the first time they put out a pest release.
It could be that these companies were maybe installed a year earlier. But I think the big, the big number movements that, that will stay the same. So we need to look in the next year into what will happen. We felt that because when we look around and we see companies that have raised funds last one, two years, they were mostly extension rounds, seat extensions, series extensions.
We haven’t seen that many new companies. Um, they’re still there. And luckily, and, uh, I spoke on the conference also a few people. So. We hope that we’ll pick up again, because what we think it’s needed, you need to need the source and the starting point of new companies to be created in order to get to the A and the B rounds in order to develop new products, uh, through the pipelines.
So hopefully that’s something that will settle on a, on a, on a normal level. Maybe it’s a, it’s an echo from, from maybe from COVID that it was a lot of company created and then people needed to be a bit more careful. We’ll see. We’ll follow the numbers. We’ll make a new analysis.
Philip Hemme: And you grasped it. I feel like there was also a bit of a, let’s say, not hype, but a craze for these like new codes.
I mean, I, between lab biotech and flood bio went to molecular partners and exactly trying to do that as well. Like entrepreneurial residents trying to, let’s say, looking at new code, could we do a new code? And like so many people’s like a new code, so many new codes being founded. And like, like, I don’t, I feel like maybe some people also realize that it’s not that easy or so like, and,
Christina Takke: and people are more critical.
Philip Hemme: Yeah.
Christina Takke: When, when I started, well, before I came to Ebenezer, I was in Germany where this was the late nineties. We had money from the government because government said, well, we need to create more biotech companies. At the time, a lot of biotechs were created. They weren’t viable at the end. I think the business plan weren’t well thought through.
And that also, well, that’s now 20 years back, but I think when going with the hypes, If money is available, people get less critical and I think more is funded. If money is scarce, people are more critical to really looking which euro I invest on which experiment. And then maybe people are more hesitant.
Maybe it’s a normal cycle and it will pick up again.
Philip Hemme: I guess. But
Christina Takke: for us it’s good. I think for us we’ll see, um, there is, there’s a good hunting ground for, for, for science. So you need to roll up your sleeves to, to, to create these new companies together with the founders. And we realized that by now having just a Series A round closed, which took longer than we thought, but I think it’s a very nice investment.
It’s an international syndicate to Flinders. Good companies still get funded.
Philip Hemme: I guess for you, actually, it’s not too bad either that. I mean, if there’s less companies, obviously you have a bit less choice, but at the same time, you’re in a position, I mean, you’re in a better position.
Christina Takke: Well, we have less competition in that area.
Philip Hemme: Yeah, I mean, I guess there’s always trade off, uh, uh, every coin has two, has two sides. Um, maybe as a, as a final question before we get, uh, we get to it, uh, the, I think two of the success, let’s, let’s finish on success stories of the Bayou. I think one of them, I think was Sindesi or you pronounce it Sindesi?
Yeah, Sindesi. And I think Agomab can already qualify it quite of a success story. Can you share a bit more on like what made these two, yeah, well, successful? Yeah. Yeah, it was, what? Successful.
Christina Takke: Syndesi was at the, at the time, a spin out from UCB. It was an SV2A modulator where a lot of research has been done within UCB to bring the molecule as far as they were.
It wasn’t a. an area where UCB wanted to continue cognitive impairment. They were focused on epilepsy and their, their, their existing portfolio. So it was something where the scientists within UCB really said, well, this is, it’s shame. It’s it, it, it, it stays on the shelf and nobody does anything with. So that was, I think, one critical part that these people said, look, we want to do something with him.
If it’s not within it’s outside. So that’s needed. That’s this entrepreneurial mindset. You need to get it. And at the end it was execution.
Philip Hemme: It shows that, I mean, there’s so many assets sitting on the shelves in Fava, but you need the people. And
Christina Takke: at the end it’s execution. Well, we had a good CEO, Jonathan Savage.
We had a good CSO, John Kemp. So they really executed what was the plan, which at the end resulted in a sale to AbbVie.
Philip Hemme: Over a billion,
Christina Takke: a
Philip Hemme: potential billion at least. Okay, good. And maybe finish on Agomam. Yeah, it’s getting wet.
Christina Takke: Agomam is really a success story for us. It was very early when, uh, we came in contact through Paolo, the scientific founder, with an antibody who does something on C MEDS, activating C MEDS, and we were like, It’s a crazy idea.
Everybody wants to block Cimet, but why we move on? So it’s really where we started and my colleague Katja Rosenkrantz, she took the lead on that and she really drove around with us with Paolo to raise the first euros to get it funded. So we founded the company with a 110, 000 euro loan in the beginning to really get the first experiments done.
And now when you look where the company is now, but a
Philip Hemme: hundred million CBC led by fidelity, I mean, which doesn’t mean it’s a
Christina Takke: great journey, but it’s also, it goes back to people, Paolo said, well, if this is what it takes to make it a success, I’m in there. So it grew along the line. And then of course, we’re super happy to get Tim Knuderos as a CEO.
He’s an energetic person. He has the mindset and the drive. And of course, well, also the guts to acquire a Spanish company to really fill the pipeline and convince the investor that this is the right thing to do. And that enabled the company where they are now. Now the clinical data need to speak and we’re looking forward to it.
[00:42:39] Thanks for listening
Philip Hemme: Great. Great conversation. I wish we could have spoke later, uh, more. I mean But otherwise we get Now, as we discussed before, we understand why things are so green here.
Christina Takke: Well, I can recommend everybody to come here, to sit here, have a nice view and a very interesting conversation with you. Thanks for having me here and looking forward to your next post.
Philip Hemme: Thank you.
Thanks for listening to the end. I’m impressed by how positive her experience was as a female in the biotech VC world. I’m also impressed by how good Flanders, DIB, vBio, Ablinks, Argenix are. Tech transfer and innovation. I think both sides are really role models. If you have enjoyed the episode as well, please hit the like, follow, review button.
Any of this actually would help us a lot. And I would be also curious to hear what you think, so I can improve. So please leave a comment wherever you are down below, or shoot me an email at celib at flod dot bio. All right. See you in the next episode.
