For our first episode, we catch up with Antoine Papiernik, the chairman of Sofinnova Partners, one of the top EU biotech VC funds. We chat about building billion-euro biotechs in Europe, being listed on the Midas list (without letting it go to your head), the importance of being good at selling, being lucky, and how to balance all this with family priorities.
I’ve been lucky to know and be inspired by Antoine for almost 10 years. Over his successful career, he has invested in over 500 companies, focusing on platform companies and entrepreneurs. He currently has over €2.5 billion under management in several funds, both early and late, in drug development, industrial biotech, and medtech. Antoine is a remarkable speaker and a good fun person.
Transcript
[00:00:00]
Antoine Papiernik: One of the things I always ask myself, and I, I really tell everyone that they should rethink this way is what if they’re right, not trying to find. All the reasons why they’re wrong.
[00:00:27] Welcome
Philip Hemme: Hey, welcome on the first episode of the Flot.bio podcast where I interview remarkable Europeans in biotech to help you be inspired, grow, and just be better at what you do. I’m Philip, I’m your host and I will tell you more about the show at the end of the episode.
So today, I’m at the Sofinnova headquarters in Paris to meet with Antoine Papiernik, the big boss. So I’ve known of Antoine and Sofinnova for almost 10 years and they’re really one of the best VC funds in Europe. The fund has been around for over 50 years, has invested in over 500 companies and has, 2.5 billion euros in the management. Antoine is a remarkable speaker and also really good and fun person.
So let’s head upstairs.
So, welcome to the show.
Antoine Papiernik: Wow. Thank you for inviting me.
Philip Hemme: I was dreaming of having you for the first speaker. It worked. So,
Antoine Papiernik: Wow. You know, thanks so much. So I’m it’s not so often that I make someones dream happen. So thank you for making that possible for me.
Philip Hemme: Yeah, you’re welcome. So, yeah, I want to discuss, I mean, I wanna discuss so many things with you and, but I will try to focus.
So we want to try to focus on what’s most valuable for our listeners and I’ll try to, to get into three parts. Yeah. First part, kind of on, on your career, second part on your mental systems, third part, more on the industry. Looking at the industry. Let’s see how, how far we go and what’s the most interesting.
[00:02:17] Background and serendipity
Philip Hemme: But first on your, I mean, on your career, you, I mean, you did an undergrad business undergrad, and then MBA in the US, Warton, and then you jumped very quickly into investment and then now you’ve been over 25 years at Sofinnova. But can you start maybe with the, from the, from the, start at the beginning when you, from your studies, like how was it and how did you make it into life sciences?
Antoine Papiernik: Serendipity is probably the single most important thing. And luck for sure. Yeah. And I, I say this to everyone that that I meet when I hire people. I said, I would never recruit myself that’s so familiar today. And then the question I ask is really annoying. I said, are you lucky? Because luck just plays a huge role in, in life and, and you know, the Americans say, you know, you make your luck, but still, you know, it’s just you need to recognize when something is happening.
I think that’s probably one of the traits that I try to cultivate. Is trying and see the patterns when things actually are different than, than what others are seeing in that, that pattern may be something that we wanna pursue as a life point. I think that’s, that’s one of the things that I’ve pursued.
So yes, business, undergrad, I had no idea what I wanted to do. I went into consumer goods. I worked for Unilever. Yeah, it was a very important step for me . First because I met my wife in England. And you know, that led to three amazing kids. And if you think about what’s important to me that is the basis of, of everything, I think that’s pretty obvious.
But I might as well might as well say it. And that’s the reason of existence in general.
Philip Hemme: You still care about some time on your new business schedule.
Antoine Papiernik: I mean, as much as you, as you could. Yes. And my daughter was here. She works, she’s an amazing embroider, fashion embroider, not really fashion, but she’s an artist. But she works for money, for a fashion house. And she’s in the fashion show here in Paris. You know, I don’t see my three kids are in London. I don’t see them every day. But it’s not about how much time you spend is the time that you spend. You need to make sure that counts.
Sorry, to start about the family. But that’s the core I think of the values that I’ve tried to live by.
So business undergrad, starting marketing, consumer goods marketing, which also I think is something that had to sell something is pretty important in life. Then I went to work for an MBA. I had no idea what I was gonna do. And this was 90 to 92. This is when the Berlin Wall fell and I thought, wow, Eastern Europe, that’s the new promised land and it happens that my family is originally from Eastern Europe and I thought, okay, this is where I want to be.
[00:05:25] Getting into investment
Antoine Papiernik: And I ended up in Prague of all places. Working for the French government and a very large institution called Caisse des Dépôts, a very large financial institution, CDC . And that’s how I started as an investor within CDC. That was, 92, 93, 94. And what was,
Philip Hemme: First it’s great because you’re answering a few of my questions which is great, but what was the like, so decision making for going into investments and then I guess for joining Sofinnova, was there rational or was it just like, sounds interesting.
Antoine Papiernik: You’re in, I mean, you’re in business. I worked for, out of my MBA for the French government, which was absolutely not planned.
I mean did I wanna work for the French government? Absolutely not. Someone offered me, and I said, OK, Sounds interesting. And, I did this for a little while, but very soon went to work for CDC, which is an investment house. So what do you do in an investment house? You invest. So that’s how it came about. It was, that’s why I said serendipity. I, you know, I didn’t plan it at all. It was more about that’s a very interesting thing to do at the time, what was going on Eastern Europe.
Philip Hemme: You enjoyed it.
Antoine Papiernik: I enjoyed it.
Philip Hemme: And so you continued.
Antoine Papiernik: You know, Prague in 95 was just an incredible place to be. So, and then, but then my first daughter was born. Talking about, you know, children are pretty central in your life.
And I thought, well, maybe I should go back to you know, to France or where I come from to have a normal job. And at the time, CDC set up in 95, a fund called CDC Innovation investing in venture. And I was given the choice, so do you want to do tech or life science? And. I said life science, of course.
[00:07:23] I wouldn’t hire me
Antoine Papiernik: And I said that because my two parents were physicians. My mom was a physician by an immunologist sort of a researcher. And my dad was a physician obstetrician. So for me, you know, the idea that you had to take care of patients, the fact that you had to innovate in science was, you know,
Philip Hemme: You, you were exposed to it.
Antoine Papiernik: I was exposed to it. You know, but without any of the training, of course. And training is pretty important. Hence my comment about never recruiting myself at Sofinnova. But anyway, this is how…
Philip Hemme: I was always convinced that you had an MD for some reason.
Antoine Papiernik: Some people call me doctor, professor. But no, I mean doctor by German standard maybe. But no, I have no scientific I’ve got a Bachelor of Science, but in international management. So it’s absolutely nothing to do with true biology.
Philip Hemme: It’s actually pretty surprising. I mean, especially in life sciences, especially in the VC fund today.
Antoine Papiernik: Impossible, except if you have which we do, we have some people who do very late stage. You know, pre-IPO public, then you have to have the knowledge about the public market. You need to have been an analyst. You need to have been a banker that’s doable. But in the early stage of the, of the business today, it’s much more difficult.
I was making the count. We have 15 PhDs, I believe. 10 postdocs. We have seven physicians, 30 masters of science, at Sofinnova, it’s just that’s an amazing mix. Some people have multiple diplomas, of course, out of those, but that’s the people we recruit today. PhD, postdoc.
Philip Hemme: So you recruit yourself.
Antoine Papiernik: No, never.
Philip Hemme: I don’t think you would have missed on the next. Today you couldn’t miss on.
[00:09:23] Are you lucky and curious?
Antoine Papiernik: I mean, so hence my questions. Are you lucky? Because you need to be lucky and you need to look at patterns because you don’t have to be a scientist to be, to have curiosity.
And curiosity is the single most important thing. And the ability to also, well wonder whether the fact that you’re being pitched a deck could happen. Meaning, one of the things I always ask myself, and I really tell everyone that they should rethink this way, is what if they’re right, not trying to find all the reasons why they’re wrong. So if you don’t start from this premise, you know, if because you’re a PhD, postdoc, physician, MBA, you know, with 20 years of operational experience, you come into a meeting with a young scientist and you think you’re gonna tell him or her the way it’s done, you are wrong.
So the real first premise is what if they’re right? And, and then if at the end of your diligence there’s nothing that proves you that they’re wrong, then you should do the deal. So, but that’s a really, it’s a mindset. It’s how you should do things.
Philip Hemme: I like this mindset of like, I mean, coming into when you meet with someone or investment, coming in, excited and more willing to do versus coming in like, oh, just trying to say no, or trying to destroy the deal . Which I see a lot in VC, especially in Europe, I see that quite a lot of people are way more conservative and way more just trying to say no. So I don’t know if that’s,
Antoine Papiernik: But it doesn’t mean it’s easier, you know, we see 2000 deals a year.
Philip Hemme: Yeah. I mean, your job is still to say no, but the mindset behind…
Antoine Papiernik: I’ll give you a few examples. Because for me, they’re the most it’s always better to talk about real cases, but one of the companies, it hasn’t been as proven of success yet, but I love this company in my reflection, medical, which is a big capital equipment, something that in general, in the VC says no, no, no, no, that shall not invest in capital equipment. In radiotherapy, which has also been plagued by a lot of difficulties in the past.
But I met this entrepreneur. I met him. I met him because it called Sam Amazing. And I met him because someone I trust asked me to meet with him. And I looked at the, I looked at the, I scanned through the one page, and I said, no bloody way, honestly. I mean, come on. So I will do it to, to please Jay, who’s an amazing guy.
So I meet with this entrepreneur. Stanford PhD and he tells me what, what they’re gonna do. And, which is this idea that instead of using traditional ways of doing radiotherapy, where, you know, a radiotherapy basically looks at a tumor on the PET scan, and then the limits on the CT where, where the tumor is and tells the machine how to to shoot at the tumor.
Here you will inject a PET tracer into a patient and the PET tracer, because that’s what PET tracers do, goes into the patient’s tumor and then emits some lights and the machine will find the light, will recognize the light, and shoot back in real time at this, at the signal coming from the tumor, basically tumor saying, I’m here. Shoot me down. Super simple idea . Everyone they saw for years told them this cannot be done. You know, it cannot be done. And 10 years later, because this is 10 years later, so to tell you how difficult our job is well, the company obtained FDA approval last month for their system called Scientifics, Syntex, sorry, or biologically guided radiotherapy. Which could potentially revolutionize the life of metastatic patients in particular, because you could shoot 10 metastasis at the same time.
So, back to what I was saying, if then, I mean the normal thing to say to Sam, would have been no, you know, just not for us. I mean capital equipment, radiotherapy, all the way from Paris to the Bay Area. There’s no way we’re gonna do this. And then we said, what if he’s right . And we actually did the diligence and you know, today have an amazing machine that is installed, commercial in a number of key centers in the US soon, hopefully in Europe.
[00:14:27] Joining Sofinnova
Philip Hemme: Okay. Wow. That’s, yeah, I like that story. Makes me, I want to bounce on that question on, like, I will jump after, but just to keep the travel, then you joined Sofinnova 25 years ago and then you climbed all the way to basically now being, being the chairman? So like, can you, like a short, like short description of how it went and what was kind of one or two key lessons there, like, I mean, 25 years…
Antoine Papiernik: Well the reality is I was at CDC and a firm that is not Sofinnova asked me for, us to hire me out. And at the time my, as I told you, my first daughter was born, my second daughter was on the way and, well, I yeah, I needed to, I needed to see how and I needed to feed my family.
That’s as simple as that. So this other firm was proposing, I’m not gonna tell you who that is, but I basically hired me or proposed to hire me at a much, much higher salary to be a, not to be an investor. I was an investor at I was a partner, if you want. There was no term for partners at the time, but I was, I was doing, doing deals at CDC and they were offering me to be in the investment team, but not as a partner.
And I said, yeah, I need the money. I’m gonna do that. And then I met with the at at Sofinnova, and he said, what? It’s a stupid idea. You should come to Sofinnova and you gotta be a partner. So I said, yea.
Philip Hemme: So you switched after then?
Antoine Papiernik: Yeah. It’s a much better idea. So that’s what I did . And so I joined as a partner.
Philip Hemme: And again, the same, like luck or being open to opportunity and…
Antoine Papiernik: Yeah, to say, is that the right thing to do? Yes, of course it’s the right thing to do. It’s not just about, it’s about giving, being given an opportunity. And I was given an opportunity at the time to be a partner at this firm . Tony was the only guy doing life science at the time, and we basically partnered from that day, from that day on 25 years ago.
And so I’ve been a partner in the capital fund. You know, we were investing at the time we had Capital One, which was 38 million Euro. Capital two, which was 47 million Euro.
Philip Hemme: That’s good. So now, compared to the amounts to date…
Antoine Papiernik: Basically two and a half billion in the management. And you know, more to come.
So, yeah. I mean, but look, we grew as a firm. And therefore we, you know, we made mistakes, but we made more good things than we made mistakes. It’s a balance. If you manage to learn from the mistakes you’ve made, then you are better. You are better at judging what makes a good deal, what makes a good entrepreneur, and try and enrich your ability to do that, that you’re good at.
[00:17:38] Becoming Managing Partner
Antoine Papiernik: And that’s what the firm as a whole did . Certainly not. And then you know, I’m one of the Managing Partners and, you know, I was proposed to be when…
Philip Hemme: When you stepped down, proposed.
Antoine Papiernik: When he stepped down he proposed that I would become the next chairman.
Philip Hemme: Which was when? Five years ago?
Antoine Papiernik: I became chairman about seven years ago.
Philip Hemme: Seven years ago. Yeah.
Antoine Papiernik: Yeah. And he’s been retired since then. Yes.
Philip Hemme: I remember that’s how I met I met when, actually when we filmed the interview. That was eight years ago. I think. That is Dan. And the funny thing is that I think we were, with my co-founder, we were the only ones entering his office in shorts. Ever. Because we were doing the tour de France on the bike, and so he still remembers us as the guys in shorts . But it was, it was funny. Okay, cool. And so…
Antoine Papiernik: We recruited one of the partners…
Philip Hemme: In short.
Antoine Papiernik: Well yeah, Tom Burt who’s a partner in the, I’m not sure that people know that. I’m not sure he’s gonna be happy for me saying this on camera, but he was coming to interview and he was on holiday in Spain, and, with his father, and his luggage got stolen. So he arrived in shorts and flip flops from the beach in Spain.
And he said, I really apologise. I don’t know if he had a shirt and a tie with his shorts and flip flops, but he still got it acquired. I mean, still got the job hired and he’s done, you know, done very well.
[00:19:10] Midas List
Philip Hemme: That’s really, that’s a good story. And then just on the, I remember for you, you got talking about the Midas List.
You got listed twice and I see that, oh, you are one of the only ones listed. And actually what’s funny that I came across, you I think it was an article in the LIGO because of this listing, but I think over 10 years ago. So it’s actually, it has some exposure. I was just wondering, does it really matter? And how much does it matter to you?
Antoine Papiernik: I mean, look, it’s always nice people recognize what you’ve done. So I think I got yeah, I got chosen 2011, I think something, or 12, so over 10 years ago. Yeah, I mean at the time they were looking, you know, there was very few of us in life sciences that had a track record that that would fit with the Midas List constraints and, you know, got lucky.
So the timing, so bad timing, you know, so maybe the bar is so much higher now, I don’t know. But I’m happy to have been elected, twice on that list. And yeah, I mean, it’s always nice when others, think that you’re doing something good.
Philip Hemme: It doesn’t, like, impact how you see yourself, let’s say humility, ego, like, I mean, I can feel that from quite a lot, especially in tech VCs.
It’s crazy how like they give so much importance in the Midas List and being like…
[00:20:41] You’re only as good as your last deal
Antoine Papiernik: I mean in our business, and it’s true for, for tech as well. You’re only as good as your last deal. This is what people say. In fact, there’s a scientist that did a study, his PhD on the return of VCs according to time.
And you’d be surprised because of course, as you gain experience, I, this is something I’ve actually shared with the whole firm because I was past the peak by a long shot when basically this guy demonstrated that you increase your return as you start in the VC world for 14 years. That’s what this study shows.
And after 14 years,
Philip Hemme: you decline.
Antoine Papiernik: You decline . And I think the way they were explaining this is initially you don’t know, you work harder than anybody else, and you gain experience and then your return increases to a point where you think you are on top. And then you start being, you know, not diligent enough and you trust your gut a bit too much, and you take bigger bets, and then you fall.
[00:21:45] Equal opportunity
Antoine Papiernik: So I’ve always reflected on this because, as I say, in our business, you’re only as good as your last deal. By the way, this has shaped also, not just this, but the way that we think at Sofinnova where the partners are equal partners in the firm, in the funds in which they work. So for instance, I may have 25 years experience, tomorrow if we either hire or promote a partner into the fund, that partner becomes an equal partner in the fund.
Philip Hemme: So equal partners means the shares of each…
Antoine Papiernik: Same carried interest in the fund. So it’s not because you’ve been here 25 years that you are owed more of the carry of a new fund and the concept is you start from scratch. You’ve got a new fund, you’ve got 4, 5, 6 partners. It’s equal opportunity.
Everyone should work towards the same goal. You are all holding each other by the chinny-chin-chin. You are all in the same boat here. It’s not because you have five years experience or 25 years experience that you’re, that you should be expected to do more or less. So that’s a principle in our shop. Not everyone does this, but it, by the way, I benefited from it when I was a rookie with milk coming out of my nose 25 years ago. Yeah, okay. I got lucky. But you know, this, I still had to build the experience, but I was given the framework where I could actually excel for the organization.
Philip Hemme: That’s interesting.
Antoine Papiernik: And I think that’s what we look for people. I know that I’m actually, when I look at the people we hire I’m thinking they know so much more than me on the understanding of the life science. I can, you know, bring some something to them by the shared experience, all the things, all the good things, the bad things that I’ve experienced over the last you know, 25 plus years since I’ve been in, since 95 in this business.
But as I said, making sure that everyone is on the same footing is I think one of the conditions of success at Sofinnova is that we are trusting that even the young partners in the team will, you know, they don’t know, they will work a lot more.
Philip Hemme: How different Is it, versus other funds, let’s say?
Antoine Papiernik: Look, I don’t have the other firms where, you know, if you’re a junior partner, then you don’t get the same share of the carry. And that works as well, what I’m saying in our shop, the system is different.
Philip Hemme: But so, and so the compensation basically is the same for Junior Partner as for Managing Partner.
Antoine Papiernik: I mean, in other business…
Philip Hemme: The carry. But I guess the salary is different.
Antoine Papiernik: Salaries is different because then, yeah, I mean you grow into a firm and then you assert your position in the firm, but the carry is the most important thing for people because this is where you’re gonna, it’s gonna take some time, but this is where you know, that’s where the real money is.
Philip Hemme: Yeah. To pay it. So basically you are, what you’re trying to do is from a compensation to get it, to get the levels more close together from, the differences closer together versus in other funds where, maybe the Managing Partner will earn five, whatever, five times more than the Junior.
Antoine Papiernik: Yes.
Philip Hemme: Okay, cool. That’s interesting.
I mean, I guess it’s the parallel with some, even some biotech or pharma companies where they try to reduce the lowest pay to highest pay, to try to reduce it a bit to have more cohesion and more connection.
Antoine Papiernik: But it’s also about having, I mean, making sure that everyone’s motivated about the same thing.
It’s about aligning interest. You know, if everyone is, you know, the good thing about the equal carry in our shop is my deal is, the other partners deal if he or she excels , I, you know, I’m an equal benefit holder of that and vice versa, which means my network is his network or her network. And so we share, I think by design you share more because you benefit more.
Philip Hemme: It’s much more equal and fair and I guess you don’t, you skip all the discussion of like, oh, I have five years more experience so I should get a bit more carry than you, and
Antoine Papiernik: Yes.
Philip Hemme: And it’s impossible to really quantify.
Antoine Papiernik: The flip side. Yeah. The flip side, by the way, if, not the flip side, but one of the things that is also very important here is you know, because, I mean making a great deal is so important in our business for, for one’s ego, for one’s reputation. You know, the track record that you build, how you make those decisions in general. I mean, here we have a investment committee that takes decisions. Everyone in the investment committee has a vote, everyone has a veto. Which you can exercise if you want .
The reason I’m saying this is…
Philip Hemme: It’s the same for everyone.
Antoine Papiernik: It’s the same for everybody, junior, senior, which also means if there’s a fantastic deal, one that reimbursed the fund, it’s everyone’s deal. And of course, there’s always someone that, that carries the, you know, the carriage. But I think it’s more important if there’s a lousy deal, because that happens too. No finger pointing.
It’s not, because you’ve taken the decision. You had your chance of a veto and you did not take it.
Philip Hemme: It’s also your responsibility.
Antoine Papiernik: It’s your responsibility. So no finger pointing on a crap deal. Which is I think, fundamental because everyone will be exposed to something that goes really, really long.
Philip Hemme: So it’s part of the…
Antoine Papiernik: it’s part of it.
Philip Hemme: of the Job. I like to come back to what you said. You ‘re only as good as your last deal and crossed with spotting opportunities, spot was, you learn a lot of things, but if you, and of course if you think with overconfidence, all that, how did you, like, you yourself, how did you, how do you deal with all of these components?
[00:28:03] How to get funded
Philip Hemme: And I can see like a DJ like a board with like, you’re trying to ponder with everything and giving importance to the red signal. Like how do you yourself kind of from a mental system, align all of that, all of these parts.
That’s the magic. I mean,
Antoine Papiernik: Yeah, and sometimes I’m thinking because another scientist actually has an edge because, I mean, you need to go through me, I need to understand what this is about. Sometimes it’s actually quite complex, so you need to be able to dumb it down to my level in a way. But it’s not so silly because, you know, you think this company might actually come to the public markets. Yes, you have analysts that are incredibly shrewd, but you need to be able to explain something complicated in a simple way. And I think for me, that’s a filter. And it’s a filter for the entrepreneurs because you know, you may be the most amazing scientist, if you’re unable to translate what you are doing into simple words, you won’t be able to explain it, to our, you know, I own investors, you know, we bring our entrepreneurs to our LPs, who are total generalists. And you see it. You can see it, you know it in fact, ahead of time when a CEO just does not do a good job of explaining that, what he’s doing.
It could be the new epigenetic editing platform, whatever, you know, you need to be able to explain it to people who have actually no background in science. If you don’t do that, it’s unlikely you will be successful.
Philip Hemme: It’s, yeah, I’m always amazed that, so like I mean, I think I met a few, like biotech entrepreneurs and CEOs, you have quite some differences. But usually the one that stands out and sometimes it’s kind of correlated with success or like with at least success of companies, there is a skill to like, to sell, but also to sell to people who are not specialists.
Antoine Papiernik: Yeah.
Philip Hemme: I think you, I mean, you need it to convince maybe generous investors. You need to convince the press, to convince, to hire people, non-technical people to,
Antoine Papiernik: Yeah. So I think that’s, so to me, that’s a sign. And sometimes people, some people don’t have the skill, but you can compliment with people that have, you know, not everyone can be everything.
Philip Hemme: Probably good enough. First, you don’t need to be excellent, but being like good enough. Yeah.
Antoine Papiernik: I mean the CEO needs to be able to sell the science. If the CEO cannot sell the science and needs a his or her, you know, CSO, CMO to do that, then they have a problem. But the CMO CSO needs to be able to just sell the business. At the end of the day, this is a company. That ultimately, if you go far enough, we’ll do turnover, that’s not a slight swear word in our, in our business, and will, you know, could become a major company with you know, with you know, thousands of employees and billions in sales.
So if you put yourself in that framework then you need to hire the people that will make that happen.
[00:31:12] Europe vs USA
Philip Hemme: That’s interesting. And it’s a perfect transition to more looking at the industry and even like taking a bit of review. But like, that’s one thing that shocked me when I studied in the US in Boston, the difference to be able to sell, like, I was meeting people in Boston, like, I felt like everyone was, I mean, really good at selling, even the PhD is super nerdy. You can still like fit really well and I mean there’s some downsides to it, but there’s some upsides. And then the vice versa in Europe. Some of it’s really hard to like even understand, even us as media sometimes it’s like really hard to even like, get excited by something.
It’s hard. Like do you see that like, I mean, you invest on both sides of the, I mean you invest on both continents. Like what’s your perception there?
Antoine Papiernik: You’re totally right. So And that’s…
Philip Hemme: Do you try to bring some of this like American setting to your,
Antoine Papiernik: Of course.
Philip Hemme: European portfolio companies?
Antoine Papiernik: For sure. Including in bringing, we use consultants in the US in Boston to help, you know, sort of deliver. It’s almost like a baby. You need to deliver a presentation that epitomize what you wanna say. That may not be. So we do that, I think translation, being able to express yourself and what is it, what is so unique about what you’re doing?
Essential. A lot of people don’t know how to do that. So but that’s, look, that’s not rocket science. That’s easy. You just need to do it. I mean, there are people that are professionals that do that just to bring them to a company, whether it’s in you know, or in in sago. You who cares.
You know, you have to use the same tools they are, you know, it’s the same price for everyone. And, but I think the benefit to a European company is bigger because they come from a low point in general.
Philip Hemme: Yeah. And you differentiate from other European companies who are not able to sell it.
I like on the industry, I like one thing you said, I think when we met was in the blog post that you want to invest in companies or you think someone in indigenous or wherever, should be set up as a company in Boston. Could you expand a bit on that and what’s behind, what’s the rational behind?
Antoine Papiernik: Well, the rational is that Europe has, equal science to the US, if not better. That’s just every data point leads to that. So if you start from there, everyone, it’s equal opportunity for a European company, wherever it is in Scandinavia, in Southern Europe, in Spain, in Italy, in Germany, in France, in the UK, to position itself as the best of breeding its field. It’s not, you cannot compare yourself with other companies in Europe. You have to compare yourself with…
Philip Hemme: Globally.
Antoine Papiernik: with the global companies. It ‘s simple, but it’s, and you know, in the field from CRISPR to editing to antibody platforms to the next antibody drug, can’t conjugate, to anything. Any technology, in general was born on both sides of the Atlantic. The IP is on both sides of the Atlantic.
Philip Hemme: mRNA, mRNA.
Antoine Papiernik: MRNA. So it’s the same. So if you start from this principle, the question is, if you, and then you put yourself in the position of Fidelity and Tero and Janus, what do you need to see? What’s the, back to the pedigree or, the elements that you need to see…
Philip Hemme: The cocktail.
Antoine Papiernik: When the company comes and presents to you?
It’s completely out of the box because it’s, I mean you know, see barely speaks English or just, you know, these slides are really all over the place and it’s not clear. So, but that is on us. This is on our companies to put themselves in a position to, make the location of that company irrelevant.
That is the only, doesn’t mean it’s not good to be, you cannot just copy Boston, pretend that you’re Boston. But the location of the company should be irrelevant. I say this even though I think in fact, being in Europe is in this environment is a plus. You know, if you think about the cost of the PhD in a biotech company in Boston,
Philip Hemme: That’s crazy.
Antoine Papiernik: It’s a plus. You know, it’s like the efficiency of a discovery team in Paris or Milan is much higher than in Boston, which is cost. I mean it’s a, so…
Philip Hemme: Efficiency per capita.
[00:35:54] How Europe can do better
Antoine Papiernik: Efficiency per capita. So as long as you have the people with the same skillset. So how do you do that? So it’s, you need to do that. You cannot, it’s gradual. You cannot pretend, you know, you’re a Boston based company just by saying, having a registered office in Boston you know, you need to bring the skillset.
Philip Hemme: It’s a Mindset.
Antoine Papiernik: It’s a mindset. You need to bring those skillset. And if you need your CSO in Boston, because you can’t find that person, just hire that person.
Doesn’t mean you need to flip the company to the US. But hire that person who will bring you and bring this organization to a position where you could actually be in Boston. And that’s the work that we need to do. And that’s the workflow on the management side. That’s the work on the board of these companies. You know, bringing those Boston based, Bay Area based, bold members that have seen so much, into our companies.
Philip Hemme: And I guess it’s part of your decision making even upfront by investing, like, is this management team or this company, will it be able to be location independent? Will it be able to be global level?
Antoine Papiernik: Yes.
Philip Hemme: That makes sense.
Antoine Papiernik: That also means you need to be able to hire if you’re a manager, people that are better than you. That’s a skillset that, it’s true for every continent.
Philip Hemme: That’s good. I’m seeing the time and I think we’ve just one minute left. Lot of things I wanna discuss, but just like, do you want to share one final thought on whatever the three parts we discussed, one thing that kind of resonates with you, you wanna share with the audience?
Antoine Papiernik: Well, look, I’m a European. No. I’m a believer that we have an amazing chance in Europe to build an industry that has the same quality companies that we have in the US. So I actually, that’s what I believe in. I mean, I’m a, I mean, I’m general optimist but at the same time I’m also a realist.
Philip Hemme: A rational optimist.
Antoine Papiernik: Well, I say I’m a paranoid optimist. I’m Quite paranoid.
It’s a paranoid survivor.
Antoine Papiernik: Yeah. And in this environment, you know, this is not a simple moment in time and for having personally seen 2001 and 2008, the, here the opportunity is so much bigger. The risk is so much bigger. Because we’re in a, so better, you know, so much better position than we were 15 years ago. So therefore it is on us to make sure we don’t mess up. And that means that the degree of, you know, the thought process and the fact that we all need to up our game. The entrepreneurs, the investors, you know, everyone needs to up our game if we want to make sure we actually translate all the things that we have created so far into amazing companies for the future.
So the you know, the ability to fund our companies. Is not trivial in this environment. So we need to be very focused on that. The ability to fund ourselves. I mean, we’ve raised a lot of money over the last five years, but the ability to convince the limited partners, the investors in our funds, that’s gonna be, that’s gonna be a very important subject for the whole community.
[00:39:27] Crossing the chasm to the future
Antoine Papiernik: And that’s not gonna be, so you have to be optimistic about the future because I think, you know, the technologies, the companies, the entrepreneurs with experience are here. But you need to absolutely be, very conscious of all the challenges that we have, and work double time, I would say, to sort those out in order to cross the chasm over the next two, three years.
The financing chasm, both at the company portfolio, company level, and at the, the fund level. We have a hundred companies in the portfolio today. A hundred.
Philip Hemme: That’s a lot.
Antoine Papiernik: It’s a lot. Or I’m not sure if it’s a lot. It’s a number. It’s a lot. But imagine the number of, and we have, you know, fortunately, you know, a lot of value here.
72 people at Sofinnova today. 72 people. It’s, it’s a lot. So you know, some of them of course are not all that are in the investment team. We have an amazing corporate services team that helps us do the work that we do. But you know, a hundred companies that need to get to cross that chasm, the third term I used…
Philip Hemme: There’s work to do.
Antoine Papiernik: There’s a lot of work.
Philip Hemme: I mean, that’s the, I mean, the message kind of, if you wrap up, like be, I mean you sound very optimistic about Europe, about the industry, about everything, but still be very kind of paranoid or pragmatic.
Antoine Papiernik: Yeah. I mean, there’s dangers that loom in front of us. And don’t be,
Philip Hemme: Don’t be overconfident.
Antoine Papiernik: Yeah. Don’t be overconfident because it’s gonna be, you know, not everyone will win. That’s for sure. So it’s…
[00:41:04] Follow Antoine
Philip Hemme: Very good. Maybe a last one, just like where people can learn more about you or follow you.
You have a Twitter account now?
Antoine Papiernik: I’m sure that’s, hmm?
Philip Hemme: You have a Twitter account now?
Antoine Papiernik: I do. I do own a Twitter account. It’s not hugely active. I do comment on…
Philip Hemme: on LinkedIn.
Antoine Papiernik: On LinkedIn quite a bit, but and I’m learning every day.
Philip Hemme: Great, thanks a lot Antoine.
Antoine Papiernik: Well thank you very much, thanks for inviting me.
[00:41:35] Wrapping up
Philip Hemme: Hey, me again. I hope you enjoyed the conversation and thanks a lot for listening till the end. If you’re keen, please hit the follow button somewhere, maybe, or the like review share button. Share it with some connections. It would help us a lot, especially this early in the show.
And before telling you more what’s behind the show, I wanna say big kudos and thanks to the team. Ciaran for web development, Katherine in marketing, Maria in logistics, Wayne in editing. They did an amazing job and there’s a lot of hard work put into the show.
So now, what’s behind? So Flot.bio, the company was founded in March, 2022.
I’m one of the founders, and previously I founded Labiotech.eu. And we started the company building a marketplace for the biotech industry, but we didn’t have enough product market fit, so we decided to pivot to a content business, with the first product being that podcast.
We don’t want to create, you know, yet another podcast. There’s already a lot of them around. But we believe Europe needs a high quality, long form podcast to help both professionals and biotech enthusiasts, be better informed, grow and just be better at what they’re doing. And so that’s why we are creating that podcast. We are selecting the best Europeans in biotech we can find. And we are intervening mostly actually offline, so we can have really the highest quality, both technical aspect, but most importantly, on the dense and the content and the flow of the, of the doing the content.
We release one episode, around one episode per month on all the major platforms.
Money-wise, we are financed by our own private investments and our business model is based on advertisements. So it’s the sponsored messages, lots that you see in each episode. And we are sponsored by financial support from individuals and corporates.
So anyway, I will not make it longer. If you are, I hope you share a vision and if you’re keen to hear more or you wanna reach out or you want to share some feedback, please send, shoot us an email hi@flot.bio.
Again, thanks for listening and see you in the next episode. Bye.
